After you have implemented the change you came up with to discourage the ratings farming, can we get a reset?

The ratings are no longer any kid of indicator of actual pvp ability.

Yes.. yes.. and yes?

I couldn't agree more we really need a ratings reset, if you ask me.. we don't even need ratings.

Without that damned ratings board I wouldn't log on to a certain few people bragging how their rating is high then mine, obviously when they cheated to get it in the first place but still feel the right and privelage like they earned it so they can run their mouths.

I am agreed with nolan on the subject of removing rating from the game. Rating is not an accurate system, all it did was create more noise in PvP... Some of the highest rated just fight people they can beat... and avoid the queue versus any real challenge... So when they have someone that can challenge their 'top ten' spot they just don't fight. Makes PvP pretty dull because it's hard to get fights in the first place without queue avoiders... we should do away with rating and just go back to the good 'ole enter the queue you get the first person is in it... and if you win you just get a win, the type of PvP we used to have. Would have alot more fights and would be alot more fun for the majority of us.

The ratings were actually pretty accurate until people began grouping with lower rated partners. Maybe we could remove rating from group pvp..and allow solo pvp to remain rated.

That's actually not a bad idea, but I think it would be good to try out the new group-rating system first:
Stephen says: "We've changed how group rating is determined. In the current build, your group rating is the average rating of all players in the group. In the new build, your group rating is the maximum rating of all players in the group."
I mean, if that works better, it would be great.

And if a rollback is possible, maybe that's better than resetting all ratings.

I'm with cloned, and nolan. Its a failed "experiment" rating should be done away with entirely, it has little meaning, especially now with the rating farming happening.

Rating means absolutely nothing if it wasn't gotten legitimately, queue avoiding is an illegitimate way to get rating higher, and only serves to continue inflating collective ratings. And the rating farming that is happening is and extremely illegitimate way to gain rating.

Its a poor way to rank pvpers, and really there isn't a good way to do that in the first place, maybe ratios would be good, count losses. But that still doesn't solve the problem of queue avoiding. Just because, you only fought people you could beat, doesn't make you the best.

If nothing else, ratings reset, and those that participated in it should get a big slap on the wrist if not a permanent IP ban for severe exploitation.

The rating system has destroyed the quality of pvp. When 4 out of 5 people I'm matched against, spend the whole match running, how is that fun. Chasing someone that refuses to even try, just running and running, and since it can take 10 minutes to get a match, those 4 matchs could be over the coarse of an hour or more of "play". Not fun, whats the point of playing at all, if thats all i'm going to get to do.

Many people have quit playing the game entirely because of the problems that have been created by the ratings system, most of them paying members. Most of the old timers, even just people that were pvping before the rating system came in, are gone, a few wiped out entirely, deleted. Some quit almost as soon as rating started showing signs of the problems we see today, some more recently. Some are so close to pulling the plug, but are just holding on barely to see if things get back to the way it was, the DR they loved, the DR I loved.

The rating system should be removed entirely, and match making put back the way it was, including un even matchs. I don't know if pvp can recover from the damage that has been done, but I can sure hope for it.



Edited by Cysira (08/22/08 03:37 AM)

When they introduced the Elo-like rating system (similar to in chess) I would be sure that things would be better, and I think that to most counts it did. It's not flawless though, and I think more tweaking is needed. Removing group-ratings could be a start. Removing ratings completely... Hmm... I'm not sure. Ok, I don't PvP so there no difference for me (yet), but I think having SOME kinda goal or something to work for is important to keep people interested.

Anyone have experience in PvP for other similar games where it's secluded from the PvE part of the game like this? How have they solved it?

If you ask me, ratings are worthless, PvP should be balanced on "Power".
The PvP Power Level means something, ratings mean nothing because the player can change them.

Also it's bloody irritating to have some noob tell me I must suck in PvP because I have a rating of 1560. It's because I've PvP'd all of twice after the ratings were added.

People see high wins and low rating and thing "Oh, you must be a noob to have so many wins and such a low rating".
It wouldnt be so bad if ratings we're made retroactive in someway - maybe adding 1 point for each pre-patch win.

I think the Ratings system is flawed and needs to be removed, PvP would do better for balancing by players item % level.

After Thought:

There would have to be a way to keep people from taking off gear, entering the queue with a low power % and being matched with a legitimate low power % player...

Maybe having a players power drop to 0% if there's an empty slot in their loadout.
That still doesn't work quite right - someone could put on a lvl 5 armor and join with a low %...

Maybe a way to set a min/max power level for a players level...
Like if lvl ="100" then min power= "90%" max power = ""

Anyway... Just my thoughts on the matter

Pvp doesn't drop...ever. If you have attained 80% power, that is the lowest it will be, whether or not you have any gear equipped.

That's interesting...
It also doesn't change if you take spells off your hotbar, I always thought it was calculated live depending on what gear you we're using.

T3 items boosting you to 103% at times..

Absolute max you could get would be 102%. Power is determined by stat points, related to the max at your given level, at level 100 you can get the t3 gear, but since many items that you will likely use don't have the max points for items, ex doc wyverns, un even split of stats make it so you get less than the total max that something with even split stats or single stat items. T3 doc wyverns have 43/12 stat split, but single stat boots can have 56 at max t3, where docs only have 50 total points at max. So things like this will take away from your max, and so the real max power rating is just under 102%, i believe the highest i've seen is 101.8xxxxxx. I'd like to see if it really is possible to get to 102% at all.

Probably have to be a mage to get any higher. I don't think there are any ranger/fighter rb single-stat bodies, are there?

Power does not concern me. Im using 96% gear..i have 99% power only cuz i was trying some gear but in my 96% gear I beat a few of 100% fighters. That purely proves pvp power is not the way to go.

I think I remember seeing someone who was 103% power, could be wrong though.

In non-rainbow yes, in rainbow I think so.

96% is a good number. At 90% and below, your chances of beating someone (even somewhat less skilled) with 100% goes way down. I have a 67% lvl 6 that beats a lot of the 85% newbies, so know-how is, of course, an important factor, but it will only get you so far without better gear.

I believe that there is a version of Aurora that has full endurance stats, but i'm not 100% sure, its been a while since i saw that piece.

I don't know why u complain about that? you was first one who started it with this " magejr " so u can just blame urself! U showed every one how to do it and they started copy it! It's ur fault!

...aaaaaand we are off.

There will be free asbestos suits available in this corner for everyone who wants them in about five minutes Plese note special sizes are in short supply, but if you are able to wait an hour or so we can back-order them. Plese post your size here and specify if you need extra long legs on the suit if you are very tall, and we will do our best to accomodate.

Please be considerate of other forum users and move out of the way as soon as you have received your protective suit. TRT thanks you for your cooperation.

Khaz,
Senior Anti-Flame Equipment Representative
Trolls-R-Them, Inc.

Actually a ratings reset would help level the playing field to start with. But the rating system, who your allowed to fight and how much of a rating bonus you gain, in accordence with your level should all be taken into consideration.

Ideally, you would want to match players with people their own level if possible first off. This would give the fairest matches possible. Both people have access to the same skills and same gear theoretically. Would be your own fault at that point for not purchasing needed skills or spending time to acquire said items.

Power level would then also be a good factor but would have to be taken into consideration jointly. Just because someone has a high power lvl or low power lvl doesn't mean they are better or worse per say. Personal skill and tactics has a lot to do with it.

Then ratings themselves wouldn't be bad but the current point system being used isn't quite right. I can see how it would be flawed. Win percentage would probably be your best bet for any sort of rating analysis.

So essentially and personally I think it should go like this.
Queue Match-up > Look for same lvl players or within 1-2 lvls possible > if multiple are found, compare power lvl to assign appropriate strength matches for them. Then win percentage from those matches could create the ranking system.

The double match-up prevents queue and match avoidance because everytime they are going to get someone within their spectrum of play. If no one is currently on that is within, say a possible lvl bracket. They will just have to wait. Kind of like the lvl bracket pairings for the BG in WoW. Keeps things within range for players to prevent from killing low power or low lvl people to gain wins and ratings. Just a thought though. Take it as you wish.

Hmmm, where to begin. First off, your too big of a coward to even use your in-game name. You must be a real force to be reckoned with IRL.

Second and just as important..much like your parents hopes for a heterosexual child with an IQ above 70...try again. Didnt start it. First to report it.

Back to your hiding behind a fake name on the internet of all places...classic. Thanks for the laugh at your expense.

To the both of you: This is NOT something needed to go public. If you two got problems with each other, then work it out in PM's or in-game. If Crickette still were around, she'd be here with the ban-hammer for poo-flinging.


(Just trying to keep the forums a better place.)



Edited by LordMagnus (08/29/08 12:52 AM)

Thank you.

Clearly, my sarcastic "you're both morons"-approach fell on deaf ears.

Leave them. This is something they have to work out themselves

Plus, Jay always makes me lol when he flames. Like in W7 that one time. Good times...

Isn't that what the Bling Gnome is for--scooping all that 'poo' up?

Hahaha, we need a new summon: A forum-gnome!

Mom? Is that you?

Didnt think so, fix your face Magnus. I was unfairly accused and responded accordingly.

If you really want to do community service then go plant a tree.



Edited by jayshermansc (08/29/08 09:26 AM)

If you're going to air your dirty laundry in public (whether you are responding to something someone said to you or the moron starting something in a public forum), it's pretty much fair game for all to comment on.

Getting 'snooty' and telling people to 'mind their own business' really doesn't work well in a public forum...you might as well tell dog shit not to stink because you probably have a better chance of that happening...

/hugz

Thanks for your two cents. Now go back to your job writing witties for fortune cookies.

Wow. Jay, do you even realize how pathetic you're looking by jumping and screaming whenever you are poked with a stick by anyone nearby?

You're in a public forum. Anything you post is fair game for anyone who wants to provoke you. The sooner you realize that more than half the replies made to you in this thread are made for no other reason than because it is entertaining to watch you flail in powerless rage at empty words on a webpage, and do the wise thing and shut up, the sooner the prodding and poking at your tender areas will stop. When you stop amusing us, we'll stop bother you.

Try it. It actually works.

Wow....

If you think that anything you could post would actually bother me then your more delusional than the waste of words you typed above. Do everyone a favor, get over yourself.

Never heard of you in-game..never read anything you posted that merited value.

See? You're still entertaining.

Only in the world of PvP. No wonder so many want that part of the game gone. Drags down the whole game.

Anyways, attacking me for asking you two to work things out in private instead of going postal on the public forums who newbies, game-testers and reviewers and everyone else can read? That's kinda low.

Dont worry..that part of the game is all but dead. And 90% of the people that pvp stay on that world and stay on this board so you saying it drags the game down proves your apparent bias.

Believe it or not..most people for who dungeon runners isnt thier first mmo are gone or leaving. Pvp was the only end game content to speak of. I think Stephen and team have done an awesome job with the resources they have been given. DR will always be one of the favorite games I have played. That being said, take a peek at the server numbers..they seem to be back to pre-retail release numbers if not below. That along with 75% of the staff getting walking papers, well, doesnt look good to me.

Well, most hardcore Dungeon Runners have a thorn against the PvP-part of the game since so many really good skills gets changed to 'hardly usable' in PvE 'cause they're overpowered in PvP. I understand what you mean though with the PvP-part being seen as a kinda end-game content.

I'm sure Dungeon Runners will prevail this temporarely setback. In the "good old days" they had very few Devs too and there came new content to the game more often than it has lately. Fewer Devs means more focused content and less "around"-material, so Chunks can come more often. But I hope the game will grow so big they have to re-hire most of the crew. The reason so many dropped now, and less continute to play, is probably because that Mythos got canceled. Nobody wanna put their time and effort in something they're not sure will continue.

Wow, These boards get off-topic real easily. This went from a "hey lets rework PvP so it means something other then just killing people" to "who flames who the fastest" in just one post.

I suppose it happens though. Now I may be new at this, but the game does have a very nice appeal for most gamers and would have to say that I don't see PvP being a huge factor, seems more centralled around the PVE and group play.

*mystical voice* "It takes a brave PvE'er to wander into the dark domains of the PvP Forums."

*normal voice* Well, that or it's my full set of Cinder who's helping against the flaming.

Well, the game doesn't go in the direction you like if you don't voice your opinion on occasion. There are many games for PvP most the time, but not as much co-op play anymore. I like that about this game and how it is incorporated for soloing or co-op when your buddies are around and gives nice bonuses for lots of people.

I haven't had that job for decades.
Now, I use a standardized simplified form to respond to morons:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
STANDARDIZED SIMPLIFIED REPLY FORM - MORON VERSION

(check all boxes that apply)

Dear:

[ ] Clueless Newbie
[ ] Lamer
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Loser
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Troller
[ ] "Me too" er
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Stupid
[ ] Nerd
[ ] Elvis
[ ] Racist
[ ] Moron
[ ] Freak
[ ] Religious Wacko
[ ] Idiot
[ ] Homeophobe
[ ] Unbearably self-righteous person
[ ] Asshat


I took exception to your recent:

[ ] Email
[ ] Post to ________ newsgroup
[ ] Broadcast
[ ] Letter
[ ] Book
[ ] Lecture
[ ] Phone call
[ ] Advertisement
[ ] Schematic
[ ] Telepathic message
[ ] Existence



It was (check all that apply):

[ ] Lame
[ ] Stupid
[ ] Abusive
[ ] Clueless
[ ] Idiotic
[ ] Brain-damaged
[ ] Imbecilic
[ ] Arrogant
[ ] Malevolent
[ ] Contemptible
[ ] Libelous
[ ] Ignorant
[ ] Stupid
[ ] Fundamentalist
[ ] Microsoftian
[ ] Boring
[ ] Dim
[ ] Cowardly
[ ] Deceitful
[ ] Demented
[ ] Self-righteous
[ ] Crazy
[ ] Weird
[ ] Hypocritical
[ ] Loathsome
[ ] Satanic
[ ] Despicable
[ ] Belligerent
[ ] Mind-numbing
[ ] Maladroit
[ ] Much longer than any worthwhile thought you may be capable of.



Your attention is drawn to the fact that:

[ ] You posted what should have been emailed.
[ ] You obviously don't know how to read your newsgroups line.
[ ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup.
[ ] You self-righteously impose your religious beliefs on others.
[ ] You self-righteously impose your racial beliefs on others.
[ ] You posted a binary in a non-binaries group.
[ ] You don't know which group to post in.
[ ] You posted something totally uninteresting.
[ ] You crossposted to *way* too many newsgroups.
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice.
[ ] What you posted has been done before.
[ ] Not only that, it was also done better the last time.
[ ] You quoted an *entire* post in your reply.
[ ] You started a long, stupid thread.
[ ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread.
[ ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it.
[ ] You posted a followup to crossposted robot-generated spam.
[ ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in misc.test
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message.
[ ] You posted low-IQ flamebait.
[ ] You posted a blatantly obvious troll.
[ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll.
[ ] You said "me too" to something.
[ ] You make no sense.
[ ] Your sig/alias is dreadful.
[ ] You must live in a skinner box to be this clueless.
[ ] You posted a phone-sex ad.
[ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme.
[ ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal.
[ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable. Each line just goes on and on, not stopping at 75 characters, making it hard to read.
[ ] You posted in ELitE CaPitALs to look k0OL.
[ ] You posted a message in ALL CAPS, and you don't even own a TRS-80.
[ ] Your post was FULL of RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON.
[ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of this newsgroup.
[ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of the Internet.
[ ] You are a loser.
[ ] This has been pointed out to you before.
[ ] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally worthless that you are being flamed on general principles.


I recommend that you:

[ ] Get a clue.
[ ] Get a life.
[ ] Go away.
[ ] Grow up.
[ ] Never post again.
[ ] Read every newsgroup you crossposted to for a week.
[ ] stop reading Usenet news and get a life.
[ ] stop sending Email and get a life.
[ ] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it.
[ ] Have your medication adjusted.
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor.
[ ] find a volcano and throw yourself in.
[ ] get a gun and shoot yourself.
[ ] Actually post something relevant.
[ ] Read the FAQ.
[ ] stick to AOL chat rooms and come back when you've grown up.
[ ] Apologize to everybody in this newsgroup.
[ ] consume excrement.
[ ] consume excrement and thus expire.
[ ] Post your tests to misc.test.
[ ] Put your home phone number in your ads from now on.
[ ] Don't post until you have a vague idea what you're doing.


In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] You need to seek psychiatric help
[ ] Take your gibberish somewhere else
[ ] *plonk*
[ ] Learn how to post or get off the Internet.
[ ] Most of the above
[ ] All of the above
[ ] Some of the above, not including All of the above
[X] You are so stupid that I didn't bother filling in this form, since you couldn't comprehend it even if I did.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Great, any other gems you have swiped off the web? I bet you have a 78 pinto full of great bumper stickers also.

LoL... you guys make me laugh.. but seriously if you don't PvP, why are you even in this post?

This post was intended for Stephen to look into a ratings reset not for some "forum-thugs" to come and run their mouths.

*puts on her pink head bandana, grabs her lovely replica Kill Bill sword (no, I don't really own one, but go with it), dickies and her pink BK shoes (lol... if any remembers what the hell those are) and rolls out in her pimped out, pink, old school, convertable VW bug* There was a mention of thugs on here, so I wanted to make sure I was in my best thug gear and car. Nothing says thug quite like pink.

Hehe.. if we want a true thug, well.. you know who has to come.. LordBruno of course wahahaha!

BK=British Knights= Gangsta

I like the challenge of pvp, and it can be very fun, which, believe it or not, sometimes includes interacting with the community. However, it seems that some aspect of pvp acts like a bug zapper (without any kick, unfortunately), drawing in a lot of self-important, egotistical, and megalomaniacal fanatics who take their digital personas and reputations so seriously that they care little for sportsmanship or courtesy.

Whatever you might say about Khaz, Jay, she, and most of the rest of the forum community, is at least pleasant to be around.

First, let me give kudos to you on this one. I would have to agree whole-heartedly on this. I haven't been around long but am enjoying the mix of personalities and humor since I have been on these forums.

As for the PvP portion, there is nothing wrong with PvP. Most people like to throw the gloves off on occasion, take a break from the casual PvE dungeon crawls and just smack a few people around. As long as the system and calculations are implemented correctly that is. Not sure on the actual pvp itself for balancing but reworking the ranking system is something I already made a lengthy suggestion on. But PvP itself is not the problem just the mechanics it is currently operating on.

Glad you came to her rescue seeing as she attacked me like the other poster in this thread. Believe it or not..I couldn't care less what 98% of the people in this game or online think about me. I have had plenty of people who I would call friends in DR and probably more than my share of those who dont like me.

Speaking your mind seems to have that affect. Hate it or love it but you cant ignore it.

Since you really don't care, then why not just drop the whole thing? This thread was just about to become a constructive discussion on the merits, problems, and possible improvements of PvP. Let it get back on topic.

No one will think any less of you for stepping away from whatever attacks are taking place, and if you really care as little as you claim about what others think of you, stepping away should be very easy for you to do.

Be the mature one. It's not that hard.

hehe good job! I didn't think anyone would know. Just call me the pink gansta! Just like pink, nothing says gansta like umm... ladyvady...hmm...

As a side note, I was watching a news station the other day and a story came on about a group (30,000 strong) of Indian (that would not be the Native American Indian btw) women who formed a group that translated to the "pink ladies." These incredible woman dress all in pink and go into towns in India to promote and protect womens rights in their country. They can go from protest to getting physical if they think it's necessary and I can away from the story highly impressed. So....hmm...maybe pink can be pretty thug/gansta...haha

I always thought PvP was better before they introduced rating to PvP. Every day I logged into DR for a bit of PvP fun, there was ALWAYS a group of 4 or 5. Nowadays people struggle just to get a group above 2. Now I don't care about rating, I just come on to mess around with friends in PvP. Now, waaaaaaay back in the first days of PvP, there was always something good to look forward to in PvP. Wreker, who may not have been the nicest person, and frankly neither am I, was always up to the challenge of giving me and my friends a nice 5v5 battle. Back then we had fun. All the "Greats" were there including: Hamilcar, Wreker, JesusFreak, Aswunreal, Pharque, Rainger, Hang, BrokenArrow, LovHurts, ClonedNinja, XxPutanxX (Spelling may be off), LuckyRangeChic, KillerRange and many many others I've forgotten. And almost ALL of them have either quit or their PvP play time has been almost non-existent. And why did most of them quit? The PvP rating system.