With the rapid influx of new players eagerly buying their retail boxes and running through the game by playing 26 hours a day, I am starting to see this question come up more and more lately.

It seems like many of these new players jump on the DR bandwagon with an interesting set of expectations that ultimately are not being met and as a result, they become dissatisfied with the game because of their incomplete understanding of the way this game works which set's it apart from all the other MMORPG's out there. I don't mean game play mechanics when I say "way this game works" I mean the concept behind the game, which makes it different from all the rest.

Many people have heard about or read the inevitable comparisons of Dungeon Runners to Diablo 2, Dungeon Siege and World of Warcraft in some of the reviews of the game. While certainly not bad company at all to be in, these types of comparisons are not telling the whole story of what this game REALLY is and what it has to offer. If anything, having DR compared to these games (instead of solely on it's merits) *may* be setting some false expectations of what this game is and what it can deliver to the players..

This means that some players are purchasing this game expecting it to be a big adventure title with an epic storyline, quests that take weeks of constant playing, grouping and item gathering to complete, new content arriving every 4-6 weeks, regular expansion packs being released, etc...etc....etc. Once they find out that this is NOT the case, the "Honeymoon is over" and disillusionment and some genuine anger seems to set in because they feel that DR as a game is now "lacking" and may leave because of this without ever knowing what's really going on.....

Some will say it's the Dev's fault for there not being "More to see and do" in this game, but statements like that completely miss the REAL purpose of this game and are nothing more then ways to try and assign blame for perceived game flaws and vent frustration for some people.

Dungeon Runners has from it's earliest beginnings always positioned it's self as a "Casual" MMORPG which means that you acquire the game, sign up, create a character, log in, kill some stuff, do a quest or 2 and come back another day and kill some more...

This game was not designed (I don't think) for people to camp in it for 26 hours a day because at that rate in just a few weeks after creating a character from scratch, all the beginning, low and mid level content will be exhausted and then this game WILL become nothing more then just another boring "grindfest" because everything that makes this game special will have been lost in the mad quest to be an "uber 733t" player on the march to level 100 as quickly as possible...

Some humor in this game is sublime and seems to be lost on many noobies and lowbies as evidenced by some World Chat comments which is too bad as an understanding of it would go a long way to a deeper appreciation of the subtleties of the game.

The Dev's here are some of the most responsive and understanding people in the gaming community hands down. I have beta tested MANY online games over the years, and I can tell everyone that this is the ONLY game I have EVER been involved in where the Devs:

1) Actually play the game on a fairly regular basis.
(some more then others and until the last 2 weeks many were on daily or every couple of days)
2) Actively solicit ideas from and listen to the players.
3) Design the game (to a point) around the players input.

I guess the long winded point to this post is this:

Maybe instead of complaining about how this game is boring, or sucks or should be more like some other game, why not try to appreciate the game for what it DOES offer instead of getting frustrated with it because of what is thought it doesn't offer.....

After all, it's not like Karl or Draykop put a Sword of Gosh to anyone's head and FORCED them to play straight through the game in 2 weeks, that's just madness and is a guaranteed way to frustration. Slow the pace, take your time going through the current and impending new content and you'll likely find a greater appreciation for this game.

I can say that I was the PERFECT type of person for this game that the Dev's had in mind when it was created. I had played briefly before it went public (and then for pay) in 2007 when I became a paying member and over a year later of fairly regular playing (4-6 hours a week) I am STILL not at level 100. I am currently at level 71, and even now with the recent content changes, have gone back to Dew Vally, Algernon and the older dungeons just to see what's new & different and I am still surprised when I see something that I didn't get to see the first time through.

Apologies for this being SO long winded but I need to get this "off my chest" as it's been bugging me since.... I dunno when exactly but for a long time now, well before the retail box.

What say all of you? I welcome comments and feedback/healthy discussion, but please no trolls or flames, as I don't want Crickette to smite this thread with her Banhammer....

When was the last time you saw Stephen log on?

Great post Cth!

Here' the thing. When i picked up DR it wasn't to replace WoW so to speak. But i like WoW. I like Everquest. I even liked Vanguard a tad. I liked Star Wars when there was actually people playing. Here's the deal in a nutshell:

I'm 43, married work 9-5. Have a house, a pool, etc... blah blah.. my time is limited. I've been at the beginning. The Commodore 64, The Atari 2600. I've played on Text Mud's. Behind me is a bookshelf with every RPG that has ever come out. Nox, Baldur's Gate, The Bards Tale, Morrowind, IceWind Dale, Ravenloft, Pools of Radiance...etc.. etc. you name the game, i've bought it and played it. The same with online RPG's. I've played and quit them all. I've beta tested so many times for companies i can't remember what games i've tested. For 20 years i worked at a Play By Mail game company that paid me to play games for people. Long story short, when it comes to RPG or Fantasy RPG, i've been there and done that.

Dungeon Runners was merely something new at the time my wife and i were shopping for a Wii game for her. It came down to DR or The Unreal Anthology. We know which won.

I like DR. It IS something different. My main concern is what is the game "trying to be"? There is enough content for it to be anything a played might be looking for, but not enough for it to lean in one direction. Here's my dilema. I'd rather a game do ONE thing great than 5 things ok. This is how i view DR. It does a lot of things ok, but in the end, that's all it does. The old saying you get what you pay for doesn't apply here. I think $19.99 and $5 a month for premium membership is a steal for what you get. But i'd rather pay the devs $19 a month for everthing i want in my game. I feel like i'd be paying half for just a tease.

The one thing that really irks me about this game is also one of its strongest strengths. The Waypoint Compass. This is just the thing that makes logging on, quick killing a few mobs and logging off, handy. But i was told you can only have 1 waypoint active at one time. Really? Why? Why can't i set one up for Sissirat, Algor the Cold and as many instances as i want? If i want to just log on and make a run at a bunch of end bosses i can do one but then i need to trudge through 7 levels of sheer boredom to get to the mob. I asked that question to someone in Townston one night and he said to just join a group. What? I have to join a group or spend 2 hours hacking and slashing through green mobs just to get to a boss that "might" drop something worthy of the 2 hours i spent getting to it? See what i'm getting at?
The devs have eliminated some of the arduous and boring tasks of a good Hack 'n Slasher but then left out some other really obvious helpers.
I see this game getting comapred a lot to DungeonSiege. For the record, i thought both games in the series blew donkeys. Dungeon Runners biggest strength is that it doesn't take itself too seriously but in that respect it falls short as well. The humerous item names are funny (to a point) but now, after a few weeks, "The Insane Ice Pick of the inebriated Bunny Rabbit" isn't funny anymore. If they had tossed some of those in for laughs i would have had a much better effect for more hardcore gamers. Walking around town seeing level 100 fighters with weapons with a "Heart" on it just looks goofy. Games can be funny and serious. I like my RPG games to be serious first with humor thrown in.
And speaking of items. What's with the Purple drops? Why do i have a bank full of 30+ purps? With green, blue and yellow drops frequent, why am i seeing so many purps? I know Rainbows are supposed to be ultra rare, but shouldn't purps be a lesser drop? My level 25 is so well outfitted he can't be even nicked by anything my own level. My Mage has a defense rating over 3000 and that's with just a modest 2% movement penalty. He's virtually indestructable.

Over my many years in gaming, when you give a player too much too quickly they tend to lose interest. You have to make someone work and earn their gear and money. There is no effort to be invested in DR. No skill whatsoever. You buy a lot of pots and stand toe-toe with the mob till it dies. That's it. No strategy at all. The only way you die is if you were too stupid to buy enough pots or you get extremely careless.

I'm sorry to have gone on and on here. I meant to explain a point and i carried it on a little too long. My main point is what do the devs really want this game to be? If it's what i think it is, they don't have enough things in place (my comment about the waypoint compass above) to make a simple time wasting Hack 'n Slasher. Simple Hack 'n Slashers shouldn't be restrictive to the task at hand. Serious RPG'ers should have to work for their stuff, if this isn't what the DR devs intended for this game, they need to give the people that want to log on for 20 minutes what they need to do what they need to do.

Simple solution: I did this in a game i helped develop many years ago when i was in my 20's. It's a Dungeon beacon. Simply, if you've been there once before you can always get back, anytime by simply clicking it. Very much like the current waypoint compass, how ever it's actually a trinket and has it's own slot and must be equipped at all times to use. It has a cool down mechanism of 30 minutes. Basically you right click the beacon and you can be brought to the door, entry or lair of any end level/or game boss/mob. The key is you have to have BEEN there. So it makes the player do the work of visiting once and then not having to trudge through hours of getting back. This is really how loot farming was born. People that just want to farm can do it at a fast pace.
The Waypoint Compass in its design is just too limited. If i've been to 7 dungeons and killed the boss i should be able to get back anytime with a simple "click". If i choose to run the 7 levels for loot, that's my choice. But since more people trudge these dungeons with the idea of getting to the boss, they don't want to have to do it again and again.

Just a simple time-saver that would make this game a lot more palettable to the masses like me.
Ok, enough babbling. Everyone says the Devs read these boards, i really hope they do. They have a good game right now that is maybe 2 or 3 things away from being great.

Till next time!

Good Gaming!
-Bo

This seems to be a simple rant about waypoints wrapped up in a hell of a lot of amour-propre.

I don't get the wp rant. How many bosses do you need to wp? You get a compass and a regular wp -- that's two locations. You get a full group, and you have access to as many as 10 different locations. You ask around, and you pretty much have access to every location.

But why do you need more than a few anyway? At level 12, you just need sissi. A few levels after that you might want sissi and algor. A few after that, you might want another, but you no longer need sissi.

I'm not necessarily opposed to exploring the idea of a wp skill of some sort, but to give access to every location? Unnecessary and imprudent.

I have to laugh at the complaint about Waypoint Compasses. It wasnt that long ago that they didnt exist at all. Personally I have to tell you be happy you have 1. There was alot of debate put into that decision with a number of old timers not thinking they were necessary. A dungeon can be run in 15-20 minutes and at the worst you can get to level 5 of a dungeon. You may not be able to log in for 10 minutes and kill a boss but usually in under an hour you can get the the boss level. The most you ever have to run to get to a boss is 3 levels not 7.

Also try running on a higher difficulty if you think your mage is indestructible. Or try HDOL on insane and watch that 3000 armor look like a wet paper towel.

Complaints or WP Compasses? Would you rather play a huge game where it takes 20 minutes to go from one city to the closest dungeon?

Have you played the game? You should be able to run a level in most of the dungeons in around 20 minutes. Not talking about running from town to a dungeon. No idea where that came from.

My post wasn't meant as a complaint, just an observation of a feature in the game. I was trying to illict discussion not flaming.

Just because Person A likes doing something one way doesn't mean it's acceptble to Person B. What one considers easy may be a nuisance to another.
I was merely making a point that an added feature might make things a little more enjoyable. I know we don't get everything we want and the bottom line is it's my choice if i play or not. Most people appreciate suggestions even if they don't like them or expect them to ever be implemented.

I am new. I've only played for less than 2 weeks now. I'm not criticizing the game and i hope no one took my post as that. I'm just making a request.

I've gone through the same thing with Warcraft. Somemone makes a suggestion and the entire playerbase comes down on the person and brands them as lazy and wanting everything handed to them. That isn't so. Why even have these forums if you aren't allowed to speak up?

DR supporters are vociferous if nothing else. Don't take it personally.

It sounds like you're used to intense combat. Why not knock the difficulty up the other two notches and see if that does anything for you. However, you might get burnt out that way. Another idea is to experiment with other classes and other builds (assuming you haven't). You have 3 character slots to take advantage of (unless our idea for more character slots goes through ).

In response to the waypoint compass problem. At any given time you probably won't need a compass to more than one boss at a time. You'll be in the level range for two bosses and the others would be either too low or too high. Really you only have to go through the 7 levels once when you enter a dungeon for the first time because there is always a halfway point with an obelisk at the fifth level.

Also if you make it to a bosses layer and you already have a compass set at another boss. For example I have a compass set at widow maker, but I may also want to do SC. If I enter SC and leave via waypoint or reset instance I can always get back there provided I don't enter a dungeon through the instance (that red transparent thing...dunno what else to call it) rather I just teleport there using the obelisk. I can always get back there even after logging as the game saves the last instance you go to, just not the mobs you beat. Also I can get to Black Widow using my waypoint compass and leave the same way so I don't reset my point at SC with Widower's nest lvl 7 for example.

Sorry I'm not sure if I'm being clear on the SC part, but that's the best way I can explain. When the time comes where you no longer need SC as you have out grown him you move on to Frump's, which is where I'm currently at. I do have to go through those 7 levels at that point, but I just view it as a necessary requirement when entering a dungeon for the first time.

I understand what you mean...

Well that was a nice discussion, and C85 summerized nicely.

About the only thing I didn't read was altering ur gear/skills to match the boss u'd be fighting, which helps alot.

Hey good thing it's a big world out there, room for everyone to play as they wish. Hey it's just a game. I will say it takes some effort to notice/appreciate aspects of the game that are not about slash and cash. And a tough skin if ur gona group or pvp, . At least dieing doesn't hurt, lol.

One thing i do like a lot about this game is that i have the ability to create sort of a Hybrid Mage that is a little different than every other idea of what a mage is supposed to be.

Most games are cut so close to the belt that any deviation from the skill set cripples your character. In Warcraft i am limited to cloth but with DR if i want to buckle up with the heavy stuff i can with a penalty.
Plus i can buy every spell in town and mix & match to see which help the most in advancing. That's a great feature. In most RPG games you can buy what you can buy and that's it. End of dicussion.

In this sense you are truly building your own character and not just what the game says you must build.

I tried your suggestion and bumped to insane and i walked all over Sissirat and after some fight killed Algor and all of his cronies..

This is on INSANE. My point was simple. All you need is an inventory of health pots and your finger mashing the Space and M keys and you can stand toe-to-toe with anything in the game and the result will always be the same. Yes, you get 150% loot drops and some nice gold, but the fact remains that there's no skill involved.

Listen Joe, i'm not trying to argue the game mechanics with you, i'm just stating the blatantly obvious. Of course the HDoL dungeon is still a challenge. There's Champs and Hero's around every corner. It's a challange on Formidable level. But even that can be done with a huge supply of pots and a quick trigger finger on the keyboard.

I agree, at level 24 you should not be worried about Sissi anymore, spend a little more time on Algor for farming purposes. Personally, I started killing Rotty solo with my alt when she hit around level 27. After a few runs against Vegrim I did not like it that much, so I simply moved to Rotty instead. I started at normal difficulty and it was just the right amount of fun and difficulty, but to each their own.

As a side note, Algor on insane should give you some fight and not be so incredibly hard as that it's practically impossible to kill him and company, there would be no fun in that either. As for HDoL, it will always have a challenge to it, as it will adjust to your level all the way to 100. If formidable isn't challenge enough and only uses a few extra pots, change it to extreme.

It's just really unclear what exactly you're expecting from the fights or the game really. Frankly, I just don't think you're going to be completely satisfied ever, simply because the game doesn't appear to be what your want it to be. You're always just going to need pots and do some finger mashing-that hasn't change in the year (while content and skills, etc have) I've been playing and it probably won't ever.

As for stating the blatantly obvious, I think most of the posts in response to you have been blatantly obvious and have tried to be as helpful as possible.

I understand i should move on from Sissi, but i was using that boss to make a point. Why should it be as easy to kill Sissi on Insane as it is on Normal? Shouldn't even a boss in the low 20's give some sort of fight on Insane difficulty?

..and Algor was a nice challenge, but he wasn't impossible to kill on Insane. He made me use up a larger amount of pots but i still dropped him.

Maybe Vergy would be a tougher foe?

Vergrim will provide a challenge, but he's an unpopular farm. Frump has his uses, but get to Rotty as soon as you can -- he's the favored farm until you get to Balzack.

A recurring idea in your posts is part of your problem. "With enough pots." Of course, almost any fight can be won if you have enough potions. Perhaps you should change your focus a bit. Rely on your build and skill rather than spamming pots.

Even at lvl 20, with a good build, solo insane sissi is basically a pushover. Same with any boss that has a level cap.

And I agree, you say "not impossible." How difficult a fight are you really looking for?

wait till you see balz my fighter with 17k hps can be 2 shotted by him on extreme i have not even attempted him on insane yet in the later levels resistances play a huuuge part lke shadow queen does a ton of shadow damage, abby does a ton of fire balz is all poison etc etc

I think everyone is missing Bostredsox point. It's not just one thing it's the whole game.
I agree with him on

Quote:

---

My main concern is what is the game "trying to be"?

---

I see all the great aspects of other games thrown into this one but what is it's speciality?
Humor? Other MMO's have humor.
Now don't get me wrong. I do enjoy spitting beverages unto my screen every so often, ( I keep the wipes handy), but where are we going?

Of course I also like life as a hobo. So I don't really care where were going I just like the ride.

But if a little more info from the devs on the next years outlook. (hint ... hint) It might help us see where the game is going.

Don't suppose someone could get a little interview and ask what's planned for the next year?

And to top it off. I do not like writing long posts cause it's almost 1 and I have work at 7. Need some sleep.

Maybe some of the fun in this game is all the aspects. Or watching the game develope as you play. I find it intersting to read old inteviews of the game and see where the game is now. It's not the same. It's always changing and that's kinda cool .

I'll stick with it and hope all of you do to.

And for the forum postings, remember everyone is entitled their opinion. Or just my 2 cents.

Hey! That's my interview! Woot!

Some of those ideas sound great,like the level 100 craftable items. Perhaps with the new wishing well thats coming in,we could get a system where you throw in a current level 99 item with kings coins,potions and perhaps items found from various bosses to upgrade it a little or totally change its stats.

Im looking forward to new skills including summons,and hopefully more pvp games.

I would prefer not to see crafting... too much crafting over time penalizes the casual players, that DR so far has been very kind and considerate of. I'm a casual player, and have left other games because just playing casually when I felt like it (I haven't logged in to the game in over a week now, I've been busy elsewhere), meant I just could not keep up with even the game itself. I hate that.

Actually, crafting is a fact that it will be put in the game. Well, at least they have it somewhere in the plans.

This is MarkT's plans for the future (17th of April 2008).

To me it sounds like something similar to Puzzle Pirates but with a humorous twist to it. Gonna be fun.

There seems to be some distress over things listed by Mark in my interveiw. Since my old interview (published December 1st, 2007 - pre Chunk #2)), there have been three content patches (vs. bug/exploit fix patches):

* Build 99 (Chunk #2)
* Build 110 (lots of content, including a new summoning skill)
* Build 121 (Chunk #3 - more content)...

Quite a bit of content was added (new quests, dungeons, gear, skills, etc...). Also, support was added in for the soon-to-come retail box release (bling gnome code, completely revamped newbie experience, the Amazon, etc..).

It does seem like the content patches slowed some, but considering the retail box was released, I can see why they'd focus on making that process as smooth as possible.

Also, Chunk #4 is coming in the (hopefully) near future and includes guilds, more new items, including new types of items (2h cannons, for example), a wishing well (sounds very cool), another new dungeon with a (hopefully) cool boss fight, character blogs and elemental chests!

Stephen put up idearunners.com since my interview. AS far as I'm concerned, it's revolutionary for a game developer to do something that closely involved with the player base.

I'm hoping Chunk #4 will go live in early August, which means there's still four more months left in the year for even more content. Some of the "vision" things from my interview have come to pass:

*Summoned creatures (starting with Bill, more to come) and other pets (Ninja and Shadow Warg)
*Guilds (Chunk #4)
*Depth of interesting surprises (elemental chests and more diversity in relic monsters)

All-in-all, I think the devs have done a stellar job, we just want them to do more! I absolutely believe that idearunners is the future of gaming development and hope you all get actively involed with it, if you're not already.