When the concept of Chill Bill was first revealed, I thought that it will probably be a nice little PvE Summon, but completely useless for PvP. However, I was proven quite wrong: in fact, Chill Bill is very useful for PvP, and he's helped me win battles I usually could not win. Conversely, opponents using Chill Bill have defeated me when usually they will not be able to as easily. This isn't a thread to say "Bill should be removed from PvP", or "This and this about Bill is broken and should be fixed". I am merely compiling a list of observations about Bill that have an influence on a PvP match.

- The Nippy Twigs buff gives Bill extra damage, a slowing ability as well as a knockdown ability: in PvP, it is a knockback stun. I am not sure about this, but Bill's stun seems to ignore the "temporary stun immunity" effect that kicks in for a few seconds after you're stunned. I can stun an opponent and have Bill stun him immediately after: I've even had Bill repeatedly stun an opponent against the wall, literally pinning him there.

- Even when an opponent is not in the immediate area, Bill has a tendency to wander off in the direction of the nearest opponent, then come back again when he gets too far from you. This means you could use Bill as a "radar" of sorts: he can be used to give you an idea where your opponent is. You can even follow Bill when he wanders off, and as long as you stay at a close distance to him, he'll lead you straight to your opponent.

- Like all other combat NPCs, Bill is capable of inflicting the "monster molasses" speed debuff. This, coupled with Bill's slowing ability with Nippy Twigs, can make it quite hard for say, a Fighter to reach a Ranger/Mage if Bill is in front of them blocking your way. On the other hand, since Bill will trail behind you when you run away, he tends to block opponents chasing you from behind and slow them down, giving you a much better chance of escape.

- Bill is a melee unit. This means he will go right next to your opponent when he detects them. If your opponent is a Shadow Mage, then he/she is in big trouble, especially if you yourself are a Ranger/Mage: because Bill will divert all the bolts. And by the time Bill is killed, you will have done enough damage to the Shadow Mage to defeat him/her with ease, or force him/her to flee.

- Ice spells: that means Bolts as well as Shards: will heal Bill when they hit him if they are fired by an ally. However, it still "heals" him even when he is at full health, and generally you wouldn't want to heal Bill anyway because usually, the opponent doesn't target him, and if he's killed he's easily resummoned. It's quite frustrating to shoot an Ice Bolt at a fleeing opponent only to have Bill block it. Worse, he blocks your allies' Ice attacks too. Ice Wizards are incompatible with Bill.

This is all I can think of at the moment.

Can't this be somehow prevented? I'm sure the Play Test Team came across this, and perhaps we have the answer right in front of us: Ice Ward/Resist. Perhaps, if these attacks and their effects are Ice DMG in nature, they can be stopped with a high enough amount of resist? Remember, people who PvP talk how some resistances are able to cancel the effects of some spells, like Divine Resist Vs. Fear of Gosh fear effect, or maybe Shadow Resist Vs. Shadow Word: Smackdown!'s stunning effect?

I know that rangers and mages would use Bill, but I found it hard to summon him with lower than 1k mp. It was easier when I was a mage and had about 15k mp.

Well, almost everyone who goes against me slaps on Ice and Shadow Resist (unfortunately for me). However, Chill Bill can inflict a stun 1/3 of the time he attacks, and even with Ice Resist people still get thrown around the place if they have Bill hugging them. Bill's attack speed is actually reasonably fast (if he isn't running around for no reason), and his stun is initiated quite frequently. Ice Resist doesn't block everything.

Unless, of course; you have an armour set with 1000+ Ice Resist and use the resist spell. Then, you usually block everything.

Ahhhhh, so you're telling me they ARE Ice DMG in nature then? You see, everything can be fought in a proper way...with high enough Ice Resist, Bill will do minimum DMG, tankers won't even notice, but this "pin-against-a-wall" thing...I suppose it can be countered with Thickheadedness, no?

I think what's good about Bill isn't his damage. It's a bonus, but not a great one. Yes, stun most likely can be countered by thickheadedness, but remember that Bill stuns very frequently. Also, you are sacrificing a few skill slots just to counter Bill there.

And I did not post it to say, "This and this about Bill is overpowered and cannot be countered". It is a list of observations regarding how Bill is useful in PvP, so don't argue against me about them. The fact they can be countered does not dampen the fact that these things can change the outcome of a match: even simply by forcing you to use Skillslots to counter them.

It gives somewhat of an unfair advantage over your opponent...but if he's using the Snowman as well, or maybe summons that ridiculous bait thing rangers use...I think that might draw Bill away from you...or...if you're up against several players, one of them can use "Offensive Gesture" to lure the Snowman away, while the others attack the opponent.

I have never seen anyone (that isn't a rookie) use Offensive Gesture in PvP before , even after Bill, so I do not know whether it will (well). As for bait, some people use it as a shield, it may work against Bill. Still, never seen people use either against Bill.

He's regular AI...it should work, and if you still have some doubts, ask a friend to test out the theory in practice.

Might work but still sounds like skill slot wasting to me.

That's what I thought. Ice Resist and Thickheadedness has its uses against player opponents, but Offensive Gesture and Monster Bait have next to no effect on players.

Would you rather be pinned to the wall the entire time and completely helpless to fight back?

That was a sort of one-time. It usually doesn't happen unless you managed to put yourself in the wrong position relative to Bill, ie. you against the wall and Bill hugging you.

Wait- I think the position of your character doesn't matter at all...neither does Ice Resistance, I think this is a bug. Why? You cannot get stunned repeatedly, even if it's an elemental stun, just look at Shadow word: Smackdown! and Holy Roller, the limited stun resistance always takes effect if you're getting hit with either of these spells to often, but I don't see how it isn't working with the Snowman.

It's slightly hard to tell these things because we do not know the exact duration of stun resistance. It may be that I am completely mistaken: perhaps stun resistance is short enough that Bill can successfully stun every second or third attack if initiated, and if Bill is right on top of you, you will be slowed enough that you cannot get out of his attack range in time: thus creating the illusion of being "pinned".

Yes monster bait works on bill, surprised the heck out of me. most because i don't see many people use monster bait in pvp anyways, which is futile if you are fighting me anyways. As for the stunning thing, I haven't noticed anything like that, but i could just be to busy with my berserker rage, lol, to notice.

Yes Bill is extremely useful, but when grouping comes into play he CAN give a group an unfair advantage( where its 2 or 3 on 1, which is what I encounter because i rarely group), and sometimes he just prolongs the inevitable. Because bill isn't scaled with the rest of the group. I may get a damage increase and what not while the other group gets a decrease in a sad attempt and balancing. Bill isn't effected, so you could be fighting a group with as many as 5 Bills, and this isn't pretty, nor does it feel satisfying to fight. Don't get me wrong, I can take a loss, but when i'm trying to fight a mob, where 3(or more) of them can think for them selves, and the other 3 are just mindless killing machines, it doesn't feel good at all, and any basis of skill goes out the window. I do like a challenge, but it comes to a point where i feel like, "what was the point of that" as i'm sure some of the "casual players"/poorly geared people think when they fight just me, and especially the lvl 100 groups.

Fight fire with fire, use him if the other person does, sometimes he helps sometimes he doesn't, and sometime he gives just enough to make you feel like it wasn't all pointless.

And with that, soloing against a group comes with its own set of problems, and is better for discussing elsewhere.


<braces self for possible flaming>

It's late, i'm tired, so i might not make much sense or am just rambling or complain, forgive me, i'm only human.



Edited by MagicNinja (04/11/08 03:25 AM)