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There are other factors such as the level of skills, which is not significant for normal spells, but is for many of the buff spells.

Personally, I think that since the devs are working (in a way) to detach PvP from PvE, why not detach it altogether? Make it so that when your character is in Pwnston, you are automatically at level 100 with all stats free for you to distribute, have access to all skills at their full power and can take any level 100 Rainbow Equipment you want into the Arena from a weapons stash. Obviously, once you leave the area (say, Pwnston), all these "benefits" disappear, you don't carry any of it back to PvE. Basically, PvP becomes almost a separate game from PvE. The idea was brought up some time ago in World Chat, but no one posted it because it was figured most people will oppose it. Well, I bring it up now.

*Runs for cover*

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In terms of skills I was referring to things like BSoL, where skill level matters a lot. Also, some skills like Teleport are not available at lower levels. And while you could say "people spent a lot of time twinking out their characters", you could also say "people spent a lot of time to level to level 100": yet there is a balancing thing that greatly nullifies the significance of levels. As I said, it is obvious the Devs wish to make PvP fair for everyone so all can enjoy it: may as well detach it from PvE completely.

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I assume Cthulhu is the character to which you're referring? If so, you've either lost a great many matches, or you haven't played many.

A lot of the PvPers have their techniques down to a science, and you can't underestimate experience.

So if your win record is anywhere near your total pvp matches played, I would suggest giving yourself more time to learn the particulars of strategy before you conclude that pvp is unbalanced...don't give up on it.

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• Even the playing field
• Still allow personal choice
• Remove the dichotomy between the more casual players who want to experience PVP and the hardcore players who farm gear and levels for hours - both PVE and PVP can be fun and rewarding
• Makes PVP entirely about skill
• Keeps that DR vibe by letting players spec as Mages, Fighters, Rangers or Hybrids instead of forcing everybody to be a shooter like in a normal FPS.
• Remove the gear and level grinds related to PVP!
• Nobody would have to wait for a match or worry about being poorly matched!

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Personally, I think that since the devs are working (in a way) to detach PvP from PvE, why not detach it altogether? Make it so that when your character is in Pwnston, you are automatically at level 100 with all stats free for you to distribute, have access to all skills at their full power and can take any level 100 Rainbow Equipment you want into the Arena from a weapons stash. Obviously, once you leave the area (say, Pwnston), all these "benefits" disappear, you don't carry any of it back to PvE. Basically, PvP becomes almost a separate game from PvE. The idea was brought up some time ago in World Chat, but no one posted it because it was figured most people will oppose it. Well, I bring it up now.

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Remember, DR is meant to be a casual game where you can "play for a few hours or just for 15 minutes!".

So you feel good in decimating people by the sheer power of your equipment: great. What fun/challenge is that? Personally, I find matches where I completely dominate the enemy, or the enemy completely dominates me, to be unamusing. The fun matches are ones where both groups are evenly matched in terms of equipment power.

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This sums up the WHY in why I created thread perfectly...

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Remember, DR is meant to be a casual game where you can "play for a few hours or just for 15 minutes!".

So you feel good in decimating people by the sheer power of your equipment: great. What fun/challenge is that? Personally, I find matches where I completely dominate the enemy, or the enemy completely dominates me, to be unamusing. The fun matches are ones where both groups are evenly matched in terms of equipment power.

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This sums up the WHY in why I created thread perfectly...

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My advice to enjoy Dungeon Runners to the fullest... play responsibly.

I find the game to be most enjoyable about 2 hours at a time once or twice a week. The game is designed around short play sessions. Of course, nothing is stopping you from playing as much as you want... but running dungeons is bound to get stale if you do it too long in a single session.

Just my $0.02.

steve

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Ok, so lets say Rippers idea was implemented.
Since there is no true endgame content or story line in this game why ever go past level 10?
Killing Rasputin or Abby over & over again is just like killing Sissirat over & over again. So in PvP, no need to hit 100 if I have same exact advantages at lvl 10.

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Necro, no one complained because level does matter to some degree atm. They have superior skills & can get T3 100s. a well geared twink vs well geared 100 comes down to 100 winning due to their advantage in skills & t3 gear. Under suggested system that skill advantage & t3 gear advantage would vanish.

I understand that. However, without the balancing levels will be an overwhelming factor in PvP: with the balancing, the influence of levels is severely diminished. I think it is comparable to remove the benefit of grinding for rainbows in PvE. But that is a matter of opinion, so let's stop discussing that.

Ok, so lets say Rippers idea was implemented.
Since there is no true endgame content or story line in this game why ever go past level 10?
Killing Rasputin or Abby over & over again is just like killing Sissirat over & over again. So in PvP, no need to hit 100 if I have same exact advantages at lvl 10.

You assume the only possible end-game content ever is PvP. That is the way it is, and that is the way it will forever be. I do not think the Devs intended PvP to be an end-game content: I mean, they even balanced it so EVERYONE can enjoy it, hardcore and casual players alike. As for "no need to hit 100 if I have the same exact advantages at level 10"... you're right, if you only play DR to PvP. Besides, it is obvious that the advantage of level is a small factor in PvP, otherwise we would not have so many twinks running around. I don't see why removing it altogether will end the world.

Yep, either you are smoking someone or getting smoked unless 2 ppl who busted their [censored] for good gear face each other. Dont get me wrong, I love a good match but if a L10 (which takes few hours tops) get same advantages/gear/skills as some guy who put months upon mponths into their character why would I waste all that time?

Again, that is assuming all you want to do is to PvP. In that case, then do as you wish. In most RTS games, you don't spend hours and hours leveling and farming for equipment until you finally get the '133t Sniper Rifle of T3h Aw3s0m3n3ss', you just go in and have fun. I believe that's what the devs want to make PvP be. And, why does it matter if a level 10 has the same advantages as a level 100? I doubt very, very much that PvPing level 100s raised their characters to the maximum level because they ONLY want to PvP.

If you want rippers idea I would call it PvP Battleground. It counts wins & rewards KCs just as pvp is now. This would promote "pure" pvp & strategies while still recognizing pvpers. (Maybe give titles to certain amount of wins in this area)

Why are you separating PvPers and "Pure" PvP Strategy? Some time ago, when I claimed PvP was really more about equipment than skill, a PvPer requested me in game to change my post, because PvP is much more skill than I give it credit. Now you are separating the concept of PvPers and Pure PvP skill? But no matter. If a concession must be made, I am willing to do so.

BUT a competitive PvP Arena with your own gear/skills would reward pvp tokens for rb gear & other rewards.
A player can only enter the this PvP Arena after they have had 25 (or x amount of) wins in the Battleground. That way, a newbie wouldnt accidentally enter the PvP Arena & if people like the battleground they can avoid arena.

I don't see why a PvP competition based on how long you spent grinding in front of your computer should be elevated above PvP that isn't about grinding, but about actual skill (and computer/internet quality and some chance, but that is irrelevant). But as I said, I don't mind a concession.

Basically, right now we have two groups of pvpers. Casual vs hardcore. Why not have 2 entities that have rewards that cater to each respective group.

Casual and hardcore are not mutually exclusive, depending on whether you consider "hardcore gamers" to mean "people who spends lots of times in games" or "people who are skillful in games". But I digress.

Even gear/skills with your choice.
Win counter/KC rewards

Own gear & skills
Ladder Ranking/Pvp tokens for rb/other rewards

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Later in your post you say that level is a small advantage in PvP so why here do you claim it is such an overwhelming factor? Besides, I have never seen a successful PvP MMORPG that didnt give some advantage to the player that devoted more time to their character.

You must have misread. What I meant was BEFORE balancing, levels are an overwhelming factor. AFTER balancing, its meaning is greatly diminished. And yes, almost every single MMORPG with PvP gives high level players the advantage: because they do NOT attempt to balance it for everyone. DR, on the other hand, does, so it is obvious the Devs are aiming for a slightly FPS like PvP rather than a traditional MMO PvP. I am merely giving suggestions on how it could be less traditional MMO grind like, as it seems the Devs intend.

Ok, tell me what end-game content has been added for L100s since summer of 2007? Tell me what they have announced to be released anytime in next few months? Please tell me what does a L100 look forward to RIGHT NOW once they hit that cap? Kill bosses over & over like you did from 1-100? Tell me what else there is to do?? Seriously, why are you collecting this internet loot @ 100? To farm that same boss a few seconds quicker? About twinks...no, the reason you see so many twinks is because a) They are level 100s who can farm on sissirat/SC faster for Rbs than praying for a good Rb from Abby in a full group or b) newer players that dont want to spend months to hit 100 then more months collecting respectable gear for PvP. Theyd rather jump into collecting the gear @ L10. The can start PvPing even if their "perfect" gearset isnt complete. The good ones max their potential but also accept they will never beat a well geared 100...as it should be.

Keyword there was “ever”. Did I say that there is end-game content right now? No, but the Devs have promised it, and it would be idiotic to assume there will never, ever be end-game content. You must think in the long term: a PvP system is something that you would want to design to last long term, not something that is going to go obsolete with each subsequent update. And just because they have not announced anything concrete does not mean they are not doing it: I’m sure they know level 100 end-game content is quite important. Besides, you seem to assume every single level 100 want to do nothing but PvP. That cannot be further from the truth: many level 100s I’ve seen have no PvP wins. They simply are not interested. I do not consider PvP to be true end-game content, particularly since being level 100 does not give you too great an advantage with the current system: PvP is open to everyone, it is not level 100 exclusive and it was not meant to be.

On the other hand, why on Earth does completely rebalancing PvP ruin “end-game” content for level 100s? Because they no longer have an advantage which really is actually relatively minor? Does that mean level 100s can no longer PvP? No. I’m sure that even if this idea is introduced, level 100s will STILL PvP. So why is this so called “end-game” content removed? Because they spent all the time levelling and don’t get an advantage in PvP? Ridiculous. People levelled to Max BEFORE PvP ever appeared. People level to Max without ever PvPing once, and will never do so. If you can show me one level 100 who ONLY went for Max level solely for the purpose of PvP, I’ll... never mind.

Regarding Twinks: the fact is they exist. They work extremely well, even if not top-notch well. That was my point: well-geared twinks already dominate 98% of the PvP community. To suggest that removing the 2% advantage (very bad maths, but you get the idea) of level 100s will be doomsday does not seem plausible to me.

And again, tell me what else a L100 is supposed to do?! Farm or PvP, thats it right now. Why do you think most L100s leave unless they are truly devoted to this game? Its soley due to the lack of end-game content. The ones that did stay pvp on their 100, pvp on their twink, or level up a new character. Im sure those 100s did enjoy the experience while leveling up & certainly didnt have PvP in mind. But, that doesnt change the fact that PvP is the only fresh (fresh as in constantly changing) thing they have atm. PvE is STALE @ 100, youve been there done that x1000.

See above. Oh yes, lots of level 100s leave because of lack of end-game content. Some are tied to the game still simply because of PvP. Many are not interested in PvP but still play just for the community. However, answer me this: if PvP becomes completely balanced like said, do you really think the PvPing level 100s will mass quit because they lost their advantage? You said that PvP is the only “fresh” thing they have, and PvE is stale. In that case, should you not further separate PvP from PvE so that they will not need to delve into the “stale” aspect of the game, as you put it? But forget that. Which one is “fresher”: killing weaklings over and over and completely dominating everyone, or always fighting against evenly matched enemies with only skill (and connection and a bit of chance) to separate the winners and the losers? I think the latter will be more “fresh”, no?

I was calling Rippers system the "pure" pvp b/c it only takes skill into account, correct? I guess I miss the problem with that statement. The other arena I suggested includes gear which would not be a pure balance, it would favor the better geared player. Nothing negative about that, just a different field of contenders. Collecting & optimizing gear with a specific skillset is a skill outside of the arena too. Preperation is a big asset.

No comment. Personally, regarding preparation: if you have to prepare your gear from an entire stash within a short time frame prior to a match, is that not more challenging than farming for gear, with lots of time to plan it out?

Have you ever played a successful MMORPG with PvP? Every one has some element that allows a player to gain advantages directly related to time they put into that character, whether it be during the course of battle or before the battle begins. This is an MMORPG. That means it include the classic concept of improving your character. This isnt a FPS where stat boosting, gear enhancements etc dont apply. You want perfect balance in combat right out of the shoot? Many FPS offer that. (or as I suggested have a seperate type of pvp)

See above. Yes, I have played many MMOs, with PvP being biased heavily towards people with more time playing: that is the way MMO PvPing is usually like, I accept that. However, the Devs have already made steps to balance PvP out for everyone and greatly reducing the advantage of having more playtime. I am merely suggesting how to further that goal. It is obvious DR’s PvP is deviated from the traditional MMO.

Again, real nitpicky...call it whatever you want The Fiddlehoppers vs. Piffwhiffers. Bootomline, they need more than one "type" of PvP if they want PvP to grow here. And, I suggested 2 different types of PvP that would please different types of players, which is a start.

Sorry for the nitpicking. Force of habit.

Lastly, players are going to [censored] no matter what. Someone, somehow will always have an advantage. Hopefully, however, the more options we allow the player (im referring to type of playable PvP scenarios) the less likely we'll have to have these type of threads.

Oh yes, someone will always have an advantage. Even with this system there is the advantage of connection speed, of computing power, and the advantage of sheer knowledge and reflexes. But I think eliminating the majority of gameplay based imbalance is a start.

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Lastly, players are going to [beyotch] no matter what. Someone, somehow will always have an advantage. Hopefully, however, the more options we allow the player (im referring to type of playable PvP scenarios) the less likely we'll have to have these type of threads.

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Your point? If you have a problem with this thread, don't be shy just come right out and say it.... TRUST ME, I wont be mad....

FYI: If the PvP system was more fair (which even by Stephen's own admission in this thread it's not and needs a ways to go to get there), I wouldn't *need* to have to make a thread like this one to get peoples 'attention' to what is indeed a real issue...

I don't know about you Fungus, but I'm not a big fan of being clowned by lvl 100's in a 2 on 1 PvP match that is so unequal that they get so bored they need to show off and rub my face in the fact that they are so much more "1337" then I am no matter what I try to do to help myself.

I'm not a sore loser, I just personally think that current state of the PvP system sucks... pure and simple, nothing more or less then that and by making this thread, I have gotten the desired result which is for people to open their eyes to this issue and I think I have done a pretty good job at starting something that has opened a constructive dialog which hopefully Stephen can incorporate in to a future build/chunk/heave of the game..