Hi everyone,

I’m one of the new guys on the Dungeon Runners design team. My initial focus will be on quests. I figured I would introduce myself, but I also have a couple of general questions. Specifically, I’ve begun thinking about the very first quests in the game, the one in Dew Valley. We have some thoughts here at DR HQ, but we’d like to see how you feel about Dew Valley.

It’s possible that we may revamp the Dew Valley quests. If we do so, what would you like to be kept or included? What should be avoided or removed? Would anyone care if the quests stayed as they are? Would anyone want the whole Dew Valley area scrubbed clean and re-imagined from scratch?

If we do begin re-imagining these first quests, can you think of any quests that might be better “first” quests? Do the current quests help you prepare for the rest of the game? If not, how could they do so? What quests could be added to help prepare for the rest of the game?

Have you run into any stumbling blocks where you say to yourself, “I wish I had known that long ago--If only it was mentioned in the intro quests of Dew Valley!” If so, what were these stumbling blocks?

Are the characters here memorable? Should they have more personality, less personality, or are they just about right? Do they talk too much or too little?

Does Dew Valley feel important or necessary to you? If so, why is that? Or do you always skip it and go right to Townston with each new character? If you skip to Townston, why do you do so?

After you leave Dew Valley, do you miss it? Would you ever want to go back there as part of a storyline from a later map/contact?

Just as a heads up, game development can be a little weird so we may not be able to use the ideas brought up here. However, we’ll certainly keep them in mind if/when Dew Valley’s quest get reworked.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

welcome Ssannio,

I would like to see some type of el;arning system put into those new quests that answers all the noob questions thjat we get.everything from how do I make the map work to what do i do with relice to how do I make chat work..... yes there is the help menue but I can tell you aobut 1 per cent actually read it ...........

Yes Sannio, Welcome to DR!
A friend said he saw a new person with White Text, called Sannio. Since I almost know all names of the devs chars, I took my lucky response on saying you could be one of the new designers, and Bingo!

For the Noob Forest (I like to call it that, sorry for it :P) I think its best to stick new players more to a set tutorial. Optional to skip, but with a warning that new players that skip might not get standard usefull information.
The ones that skip directly get the quest to kill Rattle Tooth, and then got access to Townston.

The ones that actually choose to do the Tutorial, have to face the basic things. Like Vendors, Quests, the Interface (!) and tutorials how to use skills/gear and basic information.


For The Vendors: Learn that items can be bought here, but you might find better in a dungeon. Also teach them the tabs (Armor/weapons/junk yard) as that question comes up sometimes.


Quests: Pretty good already, but I'd like to see that the tutorial points out it can be rewarding, contains the storyline, and make good examples.


Interface: For the Interface, there is barely attention for that now, yet keep in mind that people can have experience in MMOs, but also can be new to MMO's, and that this is their first one (I hear that in world chat sometimes). So I like to see a quick explanation of the interface, For Example with flashing, flash the minimap and make a popup about what it is, flash the skills and explain, then flash the icons in the bottom-right and explain, ect.


Tutorial on Gear/Skills: Really important, everything is about skills and gear. Make short examples how to use skills to be as effective as possible, teach the different Effects Such as slowing attack speed and movement speed, but also knockdown/knockback and lowering defense rating. For gear its good to explain how to equip (as silly as it sounds) and the different mods on gear, that they can be really effective.


Basics: Everything that wasnt explained yet. Movement speed and gear that can slow it down, all the way down to movement, this tutorial should be at the beginning of all tutorials.



For all this, it can be annoying for people that want to do tutorials but already know about skills and gear, but dont know about DR's features specifically. So people should be able to skip tutorials specifically, and be really obvious and clear about what tutorials, and what they contain.

I think this would do. Out of experience I know that when tutorials are confusing, arent really good or there arent any at all, then players quit more easily then when everything is explained good, but not too long written. For example I take EVE Online, tried it 2 months ago, but the tutorial I found confusing and so was the interface, I quit right away.

I hope I'll see you in-game soon (Same forum name as user name), feel free to ask me for help if you want to



Edited by Legendrunner (01/28/08 03:57 PM)

Welcome to the team and congratulations on your new position!

In regards to your questions, it might be good to start off with some other questions. Why is Dew Valley there? What is it's purpose? I opine that Dew Valley exists:

• to welcome new players to the game
• to provide a reasonably easy introductory zone
• to introduce new players to some of the basic mechanics of Dungeon Runners.

If those are the reasons that Dew Valley exists, then let's address how each of those points could be enhanced.

Welcome new players to Dungeon Runners:

When a new player enters Dew Valley for the first time, he or she is greeted with a Quick Start guide. In general, that can be very useful, but what if there was a dialog box that said something like "Welcome to Dungeon Runners! Please speak with Sir Lee of York to begin your adventures! If you have any questions, click F1 for help or type /help to join the help chat channel" (assuming a help channel is created).

Provide a reasonably easy introductory zone

Dew Valley excels in this area. The zone is both small and reasonably easy.

Introduce new players to some of the basic mechanics of Dungeon Runners

Dew Valley, in my opinion, fails in this. I would recommend the following:

• Classless RPG/Trainer NPC - let the new character be created, sans "class", prior to entry, but force the new character to select "class" and starting skills from this NPC. The NPC's dialogue will explain the classless RPG system and give a quest to speak with the trainers in Townston. Only the introductory skills will be offered by this trainer.
• "Mechanics" quests - create quests that explain and require the character to reset instances, to change the difficulty setting, to change the Item Quality toggle and to use the obelisk. Have these quests generate rare (yellow) weapon and armor rewards (these might be the first "class" specific items that the character would find, rather than being assigned the class gear at the character creation screen.. Have the player complete these quests not by simply performing these tasks, but by doing so in an applicable manner, such as resetting the instances and fighting through again to find an item that can only be found if the quality setting is "Rare" (hide it even if the quality setting is technically set lower).
• Change Rattle Tooth's lair so that it exits into Dew Valley, not Townston. This will eliminate questions like "How do I get back to Dew Valley?".
• Have a pop-up warning message when a character attempts to leave Dew Valley that says "If you leave Dew Valley before completing the introductory quests, you will lose the ability to complete these quests and accept their rewards. Are you sure you want to leave? Click Yes or No." If a player chooses to leave anyway, change their armor to a sandwich board that says "2 k00l 4 Dew Valley"

Irrespective of these specific areas, it would be very nice if you could default the Item Toggle to "On" and alt toggled on. Also, I have an existing suggestion for additional Mana pots for newbies.



Edited by Ripper_McGee (01/28/08 08:01 PM)

Welcome Sannio.

I don't have any suggestions of my own, but I wanted to advocate the suggestions so far:

Anything that might encourage new users to explore the information available instead of immediately jumping into chat would be great. - I know we were all new once, and there is a lot to figure out, especially for those who haven't played MMO's before, but we established players see an unending stream of the same questions, and it gets rather annoying.

Of course, this has mostly to do with people's proclivity toward looking for handouts [of info], but maybe if they were presented with the info multiple times and in multiple ways they would eventually be sort of forced to find their own answers.

2 things I didnt know when i started were that all dungeons basically spawn from the same portal in townstone. I remember searching for the next area for a long time.

And a lot of people dont know that passives must go in your hotbar.

Great feedback everyone! Keep 'em coming...I'm taking notes!

For the layout I wouldnt mind seeing more enemies all with weaker life to compensate, when you have no skills you kill really slow and its not really all that exciting at times. No one likes to kill slowly.

And maybe make the enemies fly farther when you hit them, just to show how weak they are; would be funny for the early stages i think.

Edited by tappa (01/28/08 07:36 PM)

Congratulations on your new position.

Perhaps a new "newbie" NPC. He or she could cover all of the controls, skill and equipment education, etc, (many of the points that have been suggested in this thread as well as common in game questions). It could be something similar to what people are used to seeing in console games, (i.e. the "know it all" at the beginning of many games who tells you about game play and story).

Welcome Sannio -

First off, if your avatar is semi-accurate - you need a haircut.

Seriously, all the "old-timers" here have already weighed in (or will soon) and I tend to agree with the ones I have seen so far.

I think "Noob Valley" is pretty good as is - it just needs some additions rather than changes. A tutorial with more hand-holding is definitely in order (so there isn't so much later on) with a focus on common usage of skills and items.

I particularly like the idea of fostering the "don't litter" mentality from the beginning. Children who were reared correctly grow up to be generally polite, respectful and cooperative people.

I look forward to what you guys hammer out.

maybe Newbie Drill instructors modeled on the Boss's they will face soon

I debated even saying anything....but since I lost....

Dew Valley as it is, is fine. Enough quest to keep a person occupied. Even giving quest that eventually force you into Townston to complete are good.

I like the idea of adding 3 low lvl skill trainers to the Valley though and moving the talk to skill trainers quest to the Valley. Several other thing mentioned already like the flashing tuts on maps and such would be a great thing.

Now with that said. I know it may just be me but, with this being my 3rd time through the Valley, I think it has become to easy. I remeber my first trip through, almost a year ago now, was an ordeal. By the time I finished it i was ready to continue on. This last time I finished and killed Rattle by lvl3 with a mage. Even though I continued in the Valley for several more lvls. When I did move on to algeron I promptly had my asp handed to me several times in a row. Partially my fault for not resetting the difficulty to something other than insane.

So I'm not sure if this is just me still not really getting it or what.


Gary

I agree with what everyone has said, and that is very unlike me. I also think there should be some sort of in game guides, players even. But there should be a seperate topic for that which I will make soon.

These game guides will be there to help new players out without holding their hands. There is only so much a tutorial can answer without having a human answer some of the questions.

Maybe a tip box as well, say like 50 tips which at anytime could be removed from windows. These tips will include more information then the basic tutorial which I presume will just teach them the basics.

Example: Tip 1, By right clicking your level indicator on the top left of screen you could do various of things. From restarting instances, leave/find/close group

Tip 2, Some quests might require you redo the same instance a few times to gather the required drops the quests calls for.

Tip 3, Did you know that King Coins could be exchanged for useful gear (and then explain where and who)

Tip 4, (Teach them about monster resists and the elements/colors)

Tip 5, Remember to visit the forums as there is alot of valuable information there, remember to use the search while looking for your requested information.

Tip 6, Did you know that Stephen and Anson often dress like cheerleaders. (keeping with the humor of the game)

Something along those lines, kinda like an advanced tutorial which if they read those tips, could save alot of questions.

Dew Valley is fine...

Id like to see the other zones with obelisks be more useful.
Once in a while you see another player at one but they are basically just rooms between the dungeons, theres no other reason to go there except to turn in quests to the NPCs.
You reach a certain point where the questing gets pointless. Kings Coins dont have any real value, I've never traded any in and gotten anything better than I've looted. I'd also like to see some items with spells or abilities built into them so players can free up some slots. More interactive features in dungeons would be nice, theres not much besides the altar/shrines that buff you for a bit.
With all the quest NPC's talk about the dangers presented by the monsters I never really get the feeling that Dew Valley is in any danger at all. It really bugs me that the vendors are useless as well. I cant remember buying anything from a vendor after level five or so and that only took me a few hours to reach.

I think Dew Valley is fine but having Tips would be most useful. I remember accidentally discovering TAB and the full map option and thinking, "man, wish someone told me about this earlier".

Well, looks like everyone has done all the suggestion"ing" for me - thanks guys! I agree in part or totally with all the "big" ideas that have already been thrown up on the board.

The most important thing I agree with is the need for a required (or vehemently pushed...) noob tutorial/orientation for basic game controls, functions, trainers, etc. As I've said before I think that noobs should have to complete some kind of overall "training" before they should be allowed to enter their first dungeon.

Noob drill instructors would be VERY entertaining and get my vote! Fits in with the DR mentality for sure. Maybe have them as "Noob Valley" trainers before you get to visit the regular ones?

Welcome and enjoy our endless prattle to its fullest.

Some static map stuff would be nice as well, maybe some straight paths in the randomization. Instead of generic maze.

It hasn't been long since I created a new toon and Dew valley is still fresh in my memory. The one thing that I noticed about the newbie tutorial that I didn't like a whole lot is that when you finally kill Rattlel tooth, you suddenly end up in townston without alot of explaination. I would like a few quests that start in dew valley that that ask you to talk to Tilles the sellout, and a few quests that start that herd of quests that you get when you first get to dew valley.

I've got a fair bit of experience with MMOs so I thought that overall the tutorial was fairly self explanitory, but I'm also the kind of person who hates asking questions.

I just want to say that I love the hermit. His personality is the only memorable one from dew valley. I'd love to see him pop up in some of the other "entry" levels.

Also I have always advocated having a high level quest in dew valley :}