I don't agree with your numbers, Babs, but I agree with the overall outcome.

The formula for calculating average dps at any one point in time is [(min + max) / 2] / speed = N. Of course, a major caveat is that the average dps assumes no misses and no critical hits.

Build 95:

min: 1268, max: 2507
Spd: 0.37, TFF Spd: 0.23
TFF duration: 195 Sec, 220 Sec Cooldown

TFF DPS = 8206.25
Non-TFF DPS = 5101.35

(8206.52 * 195) + (5101.35 * 25) = 1,727,805.15 over 220 seconds

Chunk #2- Dec 4/07

min: 1268, max: 2507
Spd: 0.37, TFF Spd: 0.27
TFF duration: 30 Sec, 80 Sec Cooldown

TFF DPS = 6990.74
Non-TFF DPS = 5101.35

[(6990.74 * 30) + (5101.35 * 50)] = 464,789.70

In Chunk#2, you'll fire TFF 2 times within 220 seconds (once at 0, once at 80 and once at 160 seconds). Therefore, you get two full 80 second durations and one 60 second duration:

464,789.70 * 2 = 929,579.40

[(6990.74 * 30) + (5101.35 * 300)] = 362,762.70

929,579.40 + 362,762.70 = 1,292,342.10 over 220 seconds

Final Analysis:

(Chunk #2 dps / Build 95 dps) * 100 = chunk #2 percent of build 95 dps

(1,292,342.10 / 1,727,805.15) * 100 = 75% (rounded up)

While our calculations are very different, the end result is similar. Over the same course of time (220 seconds), you'll do 25% less average DPS.

If a ranger relies upon TFF, then a ranger will ensure that he/she uses it as often as possible and has enough mana to do so. Personally, on Ulrich, I map TFF to my main attack key. It fires as soon as it recharges, assuming I'm in battle.

A couple more things to think about after playing Parkaboy at lvl 52 ranger this am.

I ran what should be standard dungeon levels for my character: Shadows Embrace 1 and Embercore 1. I found that after every encounter I was averaging 30-50% health or lower. Parkaboy did not die very often in.95, but got stomped 2-3 times in the first hour playing .97.

Then this kicks in:

"Non-combat health regeneration has been reduced by 33%.

The time before health regeneration begins after taking damage has been increased to 10 seconds. This applies to monsters as well as players.

The time before mana regeneration begins after casting a spell has been increased to 5 seconds.
"

This now becomes a MAJOR slowdown in the pace of the game. One of the keys to leveling is decreasing downtime between mob group encounters. I know potions are cheap and plentiful but if you are required to chug one of each after every encounter to be efficient I not sure that's good. Yes, some of this can be ameliorated with skills and gear, but the overall effect is to slow down the player.

AND add in this:

"Monster groups from Frump’s Misfortune and up have been improved for difficulty and entertainment value."

"Monster attack rating has been increased."

So mob attacks are harder and most likely their defense is higher too. Anecdotally I found this to be true running Parkaboy. So beyond the 25% drop in damage for rangers the mobs now hit harder and defend better and it takes a lot longer to recover between encounters in the regular dungeons. The +40 game just got much harder and much much slower. Parkaboy is a member toon, thank goodness the non-members can use some of the better gear otherwise their game would be extremely difficult and frustrating.

I this a good thing for a "casual" game that wants to pull in both non gamers and new to/ or non MMO players? The veteran gamers and hardcore mmo folks will adjust but will we lose the others if they find the game too difficult?

Of course the other question is will we lose the hardcore people becasue the game is too easy?



Edited by Mama_Anarchia (12/04/07 11:22 AM)

/agree Mama

Even though I'm taking a hit to overall, dps, I still have more than enough damage output to effectively kill mobs. I just ran through Ratsputin 1 and didn't really have any issues unless I accidentally aggroed multiple groups of summoning mobs, which should be a challenge anyway. While I was doing this, I was chatting with two other rangers in /w. One was crying "doooooom", the other said he'd be able to adapt, but was using more pots, I said I was pretty much doing the same (definitely more pots used, but not exorbitantly so).

Another thing to consider is that even though there will be less overall damage output from TFF, there's a ton more damage output from the Ranger Skills. All skills that depend on INT damage bonuses were bumped up per INT point. Obviously mages will see the most benefit from this, but rangers will see minor dps increases to skills like Noxious Shot and Gaseous Blast. The big news, however, is that DoT skills have been fixed so that they actually do the expected damage listed in the tooltip. This is most noticeable with Noxious Shot, which is missing a tick of damage in Build 95. Basically, this skill does twice the damage it was doing before...

So, TFF takes a hit, but other ranger skills get buffed. I was killing stuff good before Chunk #2 and I'm killing stuff good after Chunk #2, at least in normal PVE. I'll touch back after doing a couple of boss fights.

Thanks for the feedback on the changes to TFF. We're making some more adjustments before release of this to live to help this skill out.

One thing is clear to me. +55% attack speed 90% of the time is very strong. Not that I'm against strong skills... but since this skill is so strong it's a foolish Ranger that would play without it. We want to make using this skill a nuanced choice rather than a foregone conclusion.

As for your math, I think it may be worse than you've calculated there. Still, adjustments are coming. I'll let you know what they are once finalized.

steve

Sorry about the sloppy math.

It was right after a long night of gaming so my shaky fingers could have slipped on the calculator and I did do some rounding.

Ripper's right about no misses and no crits caveats.

And as for the calculations being different?
Mine are just in a reduced form.

I figured since everyone was talking about DPS I would use the same, so I divided out the cool down duration to leave the numbers in DPS. Then it doesn't matter if you're talking 220 secs or 80+80+60 secs of duration or whatever NEW duration it's going to be.

In anycase, Ripper is right the results are similar.
It is being looked at and adjusted (yay?).

But there is no substitute for game play.
All this number crunching means nothing if you can't hit your opponent due to range, your opponent has oodles of defense or your opponent beats you worse than a red-headed step-child.




Edited by Babblethrog (12/04/07 02:29 PM)

I've just done some abby runs... In my current ranger build i COULD NOT not kill abby in formidable mode whereas it takes me maximum 45 seconds and 2-3 pots in the current patch.

I respeced full agi, crit gear. 5 attempts, each time killed after 2-3 minutes after using like 20-30 pots. I could prooly have insisted and killed abby after maybe 4-5 min and 50 pots, but was fed up.
Oh, Abby's kungfu features are real nice but i was not in the best mood to appreciate it.

We've made some adjustments to help the ranger, as promised. We'll bee cooking these adjustments into build 98 tomorrow and will get it up to PTS shortly.

The changes?

1. All player ranged weapons have had their attack ranges increased to 180 (up from 115). This increased range applies to all ranger skills as well.

2. Putrid Penetration speed and range has been increased.

3. Trigger Finger Frenzy has been overhauled. The buff now lasts for 15 seconds with a 45 second cooldown. However, the attack speed increase goes from 25% at rank one to 115% at the top rank. This skill is no longer an instant-cast spell and may be interrupted when activated. Also, when under the effects of this skill, your weapon will glow wonderfully.

4. The attack rating modifier of for all ranger skill shots has been significantly increased. This will allow you to more easily penetrate heavily armored opponents with your skill shots.

5. The range of all mage bolt skills have been increased roughly 30%. The only exception to this is Shadow Bolt which was increased by 15%.

steve

Well. I am glad to see that you are working to help put the range back into ranger. Now if I can just find some reason to be happy over all of the other ranger nerfs. With the reduction of ranged damage bonuses, the changes to TFF, the reduced range, and the weakened monster bait, Rangers may as well by stock ini the potion makers. In a single run through Embercore 1 and 2 on normal, I used 3 to 4 times the normal amount of pots. In my opinion that makes things very bad for rangers unless we start wearing plate and swing swords.

Just my opinions.

Monster Bait should not be changed. What are you seeing that's new with it that would make you call it "nerfed"?

The newly updated TFF provides more than double the damage output than the previously "un-nerfed" version (max of 115% compared to 55%). Although, the duration is much lower. It's less powerful in some ways, yet more in others.

The damage % on items has been decreased, but it should not be halved. I'll verify this with the designers.

steve

In regards to Monster Bait:

As a 100 Ranger, I have both Monster Bait and Extra Crispy set at max level and using both. Previously, I could walk into just about any normal difficulty dungeon and toss out monster bait with out much fear in being attacked by much of anything if anything at all. This morning I went through Embercore 1 and 2, along with the side area. Any group that had 4 or more melee creatures in it seemed to chew through MB in a matter of seconds. Maxed MB on live holds out considerably longer. I even had creatures completely bypass MB and come straight to me much more frequently then normal.

In the past, it took quite a few melee types to knock it down. Now if I toss into, say 6 melee for example, I only kill 1 or 2 before it is gone. I have tested this against the Live version using the exact same character with the exact same gear. The end result of my testing makes MB seam drastically degraded.

Don't take that in the wrong way though Stephen. With out having the armor and health of a Warrior class, or expecting to get mauled like a Mage, I plan on taking damage. The MB only helped the beating come from 6 or 7 instead of 9 or 10.

As of this time, I am going back to do some more testing. This morning when I played, I even saw a drastic reduction in quality drops, even for the normal difficulty. During my run of 3 levels (including the side area), I saw 3 purples, 2 Major Health potions, low gold, and no relic chests. I always hear of the unlucky draw of the straw where people can't seem to get anything to drop and this may have been my turn. But to let you know just how bad it was, I fought 3 groups at once. (Intentionally to test damage output vs input.) The loot for those 3 groups was a single gold stack for 501. The next series of 3 groups gave me a single stack in the 1200 range and a blue sword.

But as I said above, I am going to do some more testing. I will keep you updated.

Steve

I noticed this too. I think it's not the bait that got nerfed, as you say nothing about it was changed. But the mob attack rating was raised and the "difficulty" of mobs in dungeons beyond Frump's was also increased. The bait is working as intended, the mobs are just hitting much harder now and so it doesn't last as long. Unintended consequences.

Pullus, I think the issue isn't that Monster Bait got nerfed. I think its more that the mobs got buffed. They hit more often, and it seems they are hitting a bit harder as well. this will chew through MB pretty quick.

-- Cras

As both Cras and Mama have stated, and further testing on my part, it does appear that MB is working as intended. I am finding the reason it appears so is because of a combination of other changes.

For starters, the increased damage the mobs do is substantial enough to plow through MB about 50% faster from what I could tell. I do not have hard numbers since my method of testing is "toss the bait out and see how many fall before it does, then take a look at how many are stomping a mudhole in my ranger hide". I know, not as concrete as the actual raw numbers but effective enough in a basic sort of way. If we take that into effect and combine it with the changes to TFF, the range reduction, and the loss of % to Pierce Damage from our gear, the mobs end up doing a considerable amount damage to the Ranger compared to the live server. (After rechecking my gear, I lost a total of 4% (from 11% to 7%) on my rings which resulted in a 50 - 100 min/max damage drop and a .04 loss of speed from the TFF change.)

For example: On live, I can toss MB and lay down all but 1 or 2 mobs before they attack me direct. This does not take into effect the few that always seem to ignore MB and think I would taste better. On test, if I toss MB, I am averaging 2 or 3 mobs dead prior to getting a beat down. This change has also resulted in the consumption of 2 - 3 times as many pots. (Going from 1 pot per group on Live to 2 - 3 pots per group on test.)

To put the potion situation into rough numbers, on Test I took Embercore lvl 1 -3 and the 2 side areas starting with 120 pots. After finding 3, I left with a 4 in my pack giving a result of 119 used. I repeated this process on Live starting with 80 pots and finding 4. At the end I finished with 31 in my pack resulting in a total of 53 used. The new system forced a little over double the damage I was used to and roughly compares to what I experience on Live in the Formidable difficulty. (The tests were ran in Normal.)

After thoughts:
The changes seem a lot worse then they appear but Rangers still took a hit due to the changes made. The biggest thing you notice is the changes to TFF because it hits the speed that Crit Rangers strive for while the thing that has the most effect is, in my opinion, the loss of or reduction of % Damage to Pierce Attack on our gear. 2 or 3% may not seem like much per hit but adding that up takes it's toll. Maybe a slight increase to the longevity of MB to help compensate would do the trick.

Side notes:

-- Fear by mobs. I normally only farm and didn't see much of this until I began testing. Can it be changed to "Scared Stupid" so that we quit running down the hall into even more critters while taking the additional damage? Or at least put Fear Resist on gear.

--Look into preventing targeting through doors in the dungeons. I ran into quite a few that I had to fight with to get open. It was difficult finding the sweet spot to go from sword to hand because of the swarm of "soon to be dead" things were sleeping against it. (once again not noticed much due to farming.)

-- Maybe increase the amount of Major Potions that drop? As the numbers above show, I spent over 100k on potions while clearing 5 areas on normal. And being on normal, I did not get nearly that amount in return through drops.

Final:

I want to apologize to Stephen, and any other Dev, that may have been put into the "Oh no! We may have broken something" mode. My extent of programming is limited to PHP/C/other similar forms along with some past experience in level design and creation for games like Quake. I know how bad even a thought of a mistake can be. Once again, sorry Boss. I will try not to let it happen again.

*bends over and prepares for a swift kick*

Steve

No apologies needed!

You raise a really good point. Now that monsters have more attack rating, the defense rating of Monster Bait needs some attention. We totally overlooked Monster Bait when working on this change.

We'll adjust defense rating of the bait so that it can take a similar-to-live beating before giving up the ghost (and your hide).

We don't mind making mistakes. We're only human here. If you knew how many bugs we found before this went up on PTS, you wouldn't think we were that sensitive.

Thanks for the report!

steve

Thanks for that update Boss, it really helps ease the mind a little.

As for the apology, I thought it was required. You and the team have enough to worry about with out the player mass bombarding you. I made a mistake in the way I was looking at things and put a possible bad thought in your mind. In any event, you guys are trying to make things the best you can. What more can we ask for? Well, we can ask for a lot more but you get the idea.

I didn't notice Mama's post. I didn't mean to be redundant.
-- Cras

TFF changes - I'm ok with where they are in this current build

Increased difficulty - In general, I don't mind, especially during normal PVE. HDoL is noticeably more difficult on normal mode, but not unlivable. Abby flat out sucks, however, even on normal. Per my other post, he's just not fun.

Decrease to percent bonuses on existing gear? Ok, by itself. Combined with the new difficulty changes? Not as noticeable in normal pve, but definitely noticeable in boss fights. I don't really understand the reasoning behind this change. Make monsters more difficult AND lower your ability to damage said monsters? That's called a double whammy. Double negative whammies suck. FYI, I lost 298 average dps (caveat - not counting misses, crits, etc...) based on gear nerfs alone. In a 60 second fight, that's almost 18k in damage lost (17880, to be precise).

At this point, if I play Ulrich on the new build I'll probably do just regular PVE or the occasional PVP. Boss fights aren't fun and HDoL is just difficult enough to not be worth it to me.



Edited by Ripper_McGee (12/07/07 02:44 PM)