THE CONCEPT
The idea here is to set up a set of conditions that prevent EITEHR person from cheating the other. At higher levels, with higher-level skills, this might not work - I don't know yet, I haven't hit 30 myself. But at the lower levels? It should be scammer-proof if you keep yoru suspicion levels at maximum.

The Future
I of course welcome feedback and further advice regarding higher-level skills and movement rates, and their impact on the system below. But it's about the most fool-proof system I could think of, after no short amount of time spent doing the thinkin'. ^_^

The System

One: This is only good for two-way trades. If it has to be three-way, I'm afraid you're out of luck here. So ... you and your erstwhile trading partner form a team, just the two of you - noone along "just to watch", nor "just to talk". A third cook spoils this stew quickly.

Two: you have to do this in an instance, where noone but you and the other guy can go. ANY instance will do, but somewhere with nice long galleries like you find in Lower Algernon would be best, IMO. Clear this gallery out, and any side-areas that might harbor monsters who could interfere.

WARNING: If anyon else enters the instance, by any means, and for any reason - the deal is off, until they leave, and are no longer on the team. NO EXCEPTIONS. If your partner tries to insist - odds are you're being scammed, and you should just walk away.

Three: One of you must go to one end of this space and drop a trash item - a potion will do just fine, if nothing else. Preferably nothing soulbound, though. The other person then moves as far away, in a straight and unobstructed line, as they can and still see the item, either holding Z or ALT. They should drop a trash item at THEIR feet to verify that you can see stuff they toss on the ground, too.

Four: Once you're both positioned, you should both drop the item(s) you wish to trade.

WARNING: if the other guy of you fails to promptly drop the correct item(s) (at all) - grab your stuff and leave. If the other guy moves towards you without dropping the correct item(s) - grab your stuff and leave. If the other guy uses any skill with which you are unfamiliar, GRAB YOUR STUFF AND LEAVE. All three are signs you may be the target of a scammer.

Five: once you both agree that the items dropped are the agreed-upon trades, you can begin walking towards each other ... passing hopefully about half-way between the items, and continuing on to pick up your new possessions. HUZZAH, a successful and scam-free trade!

ADVICE: take off any -Move equipment you normally wear, prior to this step.

WARNING: If your trading partner uses any movement-enhancing skill(s), or simply moves unnaturally fast due to gear, grab your stuff and leave! You don't want them to get to the thing yu dropped, and then manage to out-run you back to what THEY dropped, now do you?

ADVICE: To avoid spooking your counterpart, take off YOUR +Move equipment, and don't use YOUR +Move skills.

Six: politely thank your counterpart for a good trade, wish them luck and good drops in the future, and exit the instance. You may dissolve the team, or perhaps you and your new friend want to try teaming up to kill stuff for a while.

ADVICE: If you can build a reputation as a trustworthy person, who honors their trade deals and takes pains to ensure the security of their partners' stuff as well as their own, you will probably find more and more people will be willing to trade with you at all.

Flipside, if you are (or start) scamming people and stealing their items - I sincerely hope that your reputation causes you to swiftly become a miserably lonely and unhappy person. Presuming you're not precisely that already.

[u]THE CONCEPT[u]
The idea here is to set up a set of conditions that prevent EITEHR person from cheating the other. At higher levels, with higher-level skills, this might not work - I don't know yet, I haven't hit 30 myself. But at the lower levels? It should be scammer-proof if you keep yoru suspicion levels at maximum.

[u]The Future[u]
I of course welcome feedback and further advice regarding higher-level skills and movement rates, and their impact on the system below. But it's about the most fool-proof system I could think of, after no short amount of time spent doing the thinkin'. ^_^

[u]The System[u]

One: This is only good for two-way trades. If it has to be three-way, I'm afraid you're out of luck here. So ... you and your erstwhile trading partner form a team, just the two of you - noone along "just to watch", nor "just to talk". A third cook spoils this stew quickly.

Two: you have to do this in an instance, where noone but you and the other guy can go. ANY instance will do, but somewhere with nice long galleries like you find in Lower Algernon would be best, IMO. Clear this gallery out, and any side-areas that might harbor monsters who could interfere.

WARNING: If anyon else enters the instance, by any means, and for any reason - the deal is off, until they leave, and are no longer on the team. NO EXCEPTIONS. If your partner tries to insist - odds are you're being scammed, and you should just walk away.

Three: One of you must go to one end of this space and drop a trash item - a potion will do just fine, if nothing else. Preferably nothing soulbound, though. The other person then moves as far away, in a straight and unobstructed line, as they can and still see the item, either holding Z or ALT. They should drop a trash item at THEIR feet to verify that you can see stuff they toss on the ground, too.

Four: Once you're both positioned, you should both drop the item(s) you wish to trade.

WARNING: if the other guy of you fails to promptly drop the correct item(s) (at all) - grab your stuff and leave. If the other guy moves towards you without dropping the correct item(s) - grab your stuff and leave. If the other guy uses any skill with which you are unfamiliar, GRAB YOUR STUFF AND LEAVE. All three are signs you may be the target of a scammer.

Five: once you both agree that the items dropped are the agreed-upon trades, you can begin walking towards each other ... passing hopefully about half-way between the items, and continuing on to pick up your new possessions. HUZZAH, a successful and scam-free trade!

ADVICE: take off any -Move equipment you normally wear, prior to this step.

WARNING: If your trading partner uses any movement-enhancing skill(s), or simply moves unnaturally fast due to gear, grab your stuff and leave! You don't want them to get to the thing yu dropped, and then manage to out-run you back to what THEY dropped, now do you?

ADVICE: To avoid spooking your counterpart, take off YOUR +Move equipment, and don't use YOUR +Move skills.

Six: politely thank your counterpart for a good trade, wish them luck and good drops in the future, and exit the instance. You may dissolve the team, or perhaps you and your new friend want to try teaming up to kill stuff for a while.

ADVICE: If you can build a reputation as a trustworthy person, who honors their trade deals and takes pains to ensure the security of their [u]partners'[u] stuff as well as their own, you will probably find more and more people will be willing to trade with you at all.

Flipside, if you are (or start) scamming people and stealing their items - I sincerely hope that your reputation causes you to swiftly become a miserably lonely and unhappy person. Presuming you're not precisely that already.

Pax_Arcana, those are very good ideas on how to avoid being scammed while trading items. Especially the points on the +movement. My mage has something like +26% movement speed! So I know what you're talking about...and throw Spirit of the Hair on top of that - yeah, I could run to an item that a warrior dropped for me, and then run back to my item and pick it up before s/he got to it! Not that I would do that - just pointing out how on spot you are.

Another way to avoid trading scams is to have a trusted, uninvolved 3rd party perform the trade. I've seen this used in games where there wasn't a trade window before (Diablo 2). If the 3rd party is trustworthy, it works. But that's the rub, finding a trustworthy 3rd party.

Now, I have performed such arbitration/moderation between trades and am willing to do so here until a Trade Window is implemented. If anyone wishes for my to do so, I'd be more than happy to help. My characters' names are Cronniss & Ahlahnnah. Just end me a whisper in-game or a PM on the boards. (I hit the boards before I get into the game.)

The following are my rules for arbitrating a trade between 2 people -

* During this period of time I have world chat turned off. (The other parties can have it on, I will have it off so that I can easly see important info going on between the trade.)

* Trading parties are to team with me.

* I am to be told the item names & stats of what is to be traded by each person in group chat (now made easier by item linking).

* In a clear instance (or cleared room/section of an instance), the two parties stand far enough apart to just see see each other on the screen.

* The 1st party I stand next to drops the item they are trading, which I will inspect to ensure it is the correct item & then carry over to the other party - they are to stay there. If this party moves closer to the 2nd party I will end the deal.

* The 2nd party drops they item they are trading, which I will inspect to ensure it is the correct item. If it is the correct item, I will pick up & then drop their new item.

* I will carry the 1st party's new item to them and drop it for them to pick it up. If the 2nd party is still there and moves toward the 1st party before I drop the item or before they pick it up, they will be kicked from the team.

* If parties involved prefer, the 2nd party can/will be asked to leave the team before the item is delivered to the 1st party to ensure the security of delivery.

I know that trading in this manner requires quite a bit of trust, but I also know that I would rather make sure that people get the items that they want to trade than get ripped off. And if that means that I take time out of my gaming (getting xp or gold or items), then it means that someone else's gaming experience is made better - which makes the whole better, I think. But, hey, that's me.

You put together a great post, but I think the fact that it's so detailed and involved really points to an underlying problem - there's currently no secure trade mechanism. As such, I would personally recommend that players avoid trading at all. There seems to be an increasing number of scam artists in Dungeon Runners. If you do trade, you need to understand that it is inherently risky, at best. That's why I put together a player guide , which the GM's stickied. Unfortunately, that guide is slightly dated now, so I'll need to update it.

If you do trade, do not trust item links! Linked items descriptions are currently bugged in regards to the items being soulbound. Here are two examples:

Item Link Bug: Example 1

In this first example, I have an item that is soulbound to me (and has been for some time), but the item link shows that the item still has 10 minutes to be equipped before being soulbound. I believe scam artists exploit this bug.

Item Link Bug: Example 2

In the second example, the item is clearly soulbound, but displays neither the soulbound status nor any timer information. It's very misleading.

Lastly, it's not uncommon for scammers to link at item more than once in chat, giving the impression that they have more than one of any given item.

Once again, my personal recommendation--for now--is for players to avoid trading at all rather than having to take extreme measures in an attempt to avoid being scammed.

I am in full agreement there! I only intend to suggest this as a TEMPORARY measure, until such time as a trading system is coded directly into the game by the developers.

Whoops, you just lost me. I don't think you should avoid ANY trading, I think you shuld just make sure you're not going to fall victim of somethign that will upset you, or damage your enjoyment of that day.

What you describe about items being Soulbound and not showing it properly, yeah ... I find that very troubling. Is this status visible when observing it after it's been dropped on the ground?

So, if I hold ALT and don't see it, I know the trade won't work, and can back out. Hmm, I smell an edit coming on ...

i just noticed that if you ctl click on a link in chat it will link in your post as well so scammers could use that as a way to say they have rb's when they really dont.

Interesting discovery, there.

That would be another good reason why you want to make sure that the item dropped on the ground is the same one the other person is offering for trade.

Interesting discovery, there.

That would be another good reason why you want to make sure that the item dropped on the ground is the same one the other person is offering for trade.

Q: What happens if you both drop the stuff then the guy grabs his and uses the "Go To" command? Taking off all +speed stuff wouldnt do anything against it.

You should be holding ALT (or have it set to Toggle). The instant you see the other guy's stuff disappear - grab and bail.

Even with the above system, not getting scammed still requires a keen eye, twitch-game-worthy reflexes, and a heapin' helpin' of paranoia and suspicion... which is why I really, really hope a direct Trading interface is patched in, and soon (then this thread, my lovely lovely thread, can be un-stickied and sink into oblivion).

You should be holding ALT (or have it set to Toggle). The instant you see the other guy's stuff disappear - grab and bail.

Even with the above system, not getting scammed still requires a keen eye, twitch-game-worthy reflexes, and a heapin' helpin' of paranoia and suspicion... which is why I really, really hope a direct Trading interface is patched in, and soon (then this thread, my lovely lovely thread, can be un-stickied and sink into oblivion).

thers no safe trade at dungeons, because as soon as you drop the rainbow, the leader of the group can remove you from group and the rainbow remains on the floor.so no trade until a patch with trade system comes.