I tried dual welding weapons and I couldn't figure this out. What effects does dual-weilding weapons do? Does it increase dmg output, speed, or anything at all? I didn't seem to notice much when compared to a signle weapon and shield.

Its not implimented yet on the damage side..all you will get is stat bonuses

Criim

That makes me sad, I can't wait till we get dual wielding.

Meh thats too bad but then again the damage from two-handers really does make up for the loss of defence from any shield ... Maybe if the bonus on my second weapon was good enough I might reconsider till dual weilding changes. At least the bonuses work but I think that is something more reserved for mages and insane INT wands.

Two handers it is then...

Anyone know of a generic damage parser we could use?
I started dual wielding tonight and I'd say by the looks of things that both weapons do damage. I was killing very quickly with two weaps...at least as fast as with a 2 hander...the only draw back was cleave didnt seem to drop them as nicely. But I'd like to know for sure

Criim

FYI. A dual wielding solution is in the next build. We've increased your attack speed by 20% when using two weapons.

steve

Can you elaborate on that? Most games give you a penalty for dual wielding. Like each weapon does 75% of normal damage so you get about 50% more damage than using just a 1-hander and shield. So it doesn't make sense to me to get +20% attack speed while dual wielding.

Are you just making the main hand weapon 20% faster and still not using the damage from the off hand? Thats the only way I can make sense of it.

From the new build thread:

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It does damage too, Tachan.

steve

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So my guess is in like the animations the damage will alternate from main to off hand weapon and your overall a-speed will be upped 20%.

You attacks with both, do damage with both, but you alternate between both weapons. While other games might give penalties they let you deal multiple attacks per round here you are still doing 1 attack per round but those attacks alternate and a-speed increases...


Or at least thats my guess because if you look right now the animations look like your using your alternate weapon just that... you aren't so thats my stab. I guess we will see w/ the next build...

ssshhh! don't make them change their minds!

If by "penalties for dual-wield" you are thinking of D&D-based games, the extra attacks from dual wielding are a heck of a lot more than a mere 20% speed increase so you need the penalties to offset there...

In DR you'd be giving up a shield or a two-handed weapon to dual wield. (Not that those are something you'd necessarily care about....)

Interesting solution, but I also doubt that adding 20% haste is gonna cut it. But hey, we shall see soon enough.

I honestly thought you would offer a more complex solution. Like some long, complicated equation explaining how the offhand damage is computed in relation to the main hand damage, etc... ;)

i think the +20% speed is to simulate the extra damage done by the other weapon. Instead of actually adding the damage done by the other weapon. i could be wrong though.

I think the other weapon does damage, I think the 20% is to compensate for the lack of shield otherwise why bother?

Am I correct in assuming that when you dual-wield you use alternatively your left and right weapon? You don't get the effect of both in the same attack?

Sounds like only the main hand weapon actually attacks. As it stands now, the offhand weapon should be picked for the highest str/dmg boost stats possible. The main hand should probably be something less than ludicrous speed, unless its possible to go 20% faster than ludicrous. Did they ever say if there was a cap to the atk rate?

I don't know about melee, but Tachan (the lvl 100 ranger) has gotten pretty fast with ranged attacks, and I don't think he's found a cap yet.

Just looked over the patch notes. Looks like Dualwielding will be more vialbe now.
Also notice the change to skill cooldowns. This means that you can use skills like cleave more often with Dualwielding than 2-handers.

Hm, I wodner if the 20% speed increase for Dualwielding affect the skill cooldown as well? So the skills cooldown even faster if you dual-wield than use weapon+shield?

The 20% speed increase for dual wielding does not apply to the cool down based on weapons. In fact, only the main hand weapon is used in that calculation. So, wield a fast weapon in the main hand to get the best benefit.

steve

ok heres a question that i may have overlooked the answer to before but which weapon speed is the 20% speed increase added to for dual wielding...or is it an average of the two weapons?

There was a rather heated discussion of this yesterday. I play a fighter that happens to DW right now. I'm not saying DW isn't broken, that I'm right and everyone else is wrong,I'm just having a hard time seeing it personally. I've only been playing for 2 days, but based on actual gameplay it doesn't seem to be the case. I made a video of a fight against some Oroks in Agrok L2 not more than 1 hour ago. It's me against 4-5 Warriors and a Champion. I recorded from start to end and then slowed down the fight with the Champion as a second part. Grab it from here if you want to see it
http://dodownload.filefront.com/6991309/...18aa1d431b693aa (http://dodownload.filefront.com/6991309//c782ff684830ad1307bf7fca74ba8086ca7b451ec4bc8e548b f3aa37ac9ed5fd518aa1d431b693aa)

I keep hearing and seeing DW is broken, that the damage from the second weapon doesn't get applied. My gameplay footage seems to show the contrary though. I'm not sure how DW is supposed to work here. But the explanations I've gotten from people on how it's broken doesn't mesh up with what I've seen.

I don't want the boosts in today's patch removed, I've just played enough MMOs that I don't want to see it nerfed in the future if it becomes too strong. Basically what I am hoping is to get detailed information on just how it is broken. Is it not doing the level of damage it should be because certain aspects aren't being applied? Is the offhand not doing the damage it should be? What exactly is broken about it?

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I'm not saying DW isn't broken,

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I've tried to get people to actually test DW for a while, it's an uphill battle against the "I heard that it was broken a while ago, that means we shouldn't see if it actually works"-crowd.

Whenever I've tested DW it has actually dealt damage with both weapons (note: THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE WEAPONS COMBINE THEIR DAMAGE INTO A SINGLE NUMBER!). The only bug I've found is that you don't see the damage from both weapons displayed on your character sheet (build 44).

The balance issue has, to me, always been that Butcher has been available for a higher percentage of your attacks with a slower weapon than two fast ones. We'll hopefully see a bit more balance with build 49.

As stated by Stephen in the past: The animations work, so you see both weapons swinging. However, only the main hand weapon does any damage. This is somehow being addressed in the patch that is being applied as we speak. Therefore making this a moot point. :) Thank goodness!

Hint: When you get an answer from a Dev, its time to stop arguing. :p

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As stated by Stephen in the past: The animations work, so you see both weapons swinging. However, only the main hand weapon does any damage. This is somehow being addressed in the patch that is being applied as we speak. Therefore making this a moot point. :) Thank goodness!

Hint: When you get an answer from a Dev, its time to stop arguing. :p

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That would be stupid, why only do damage from the main hand? Btw, Stephen was only talking about skill timers, not damage.

This is my theory (or at least, what I think would be the "smart" way to do this):
Each hand is swung (at a 20% speed increase) one at a time, alternating. Example:
Main hand swings @ 80% normal attack delay
Off hand swings @ 80% normal attack delay
Main hand swings
Off hand swings

You get the picture. It would be downright stupid to outright ignore the damage from the offhand weapon. If it's not integrated into one single slower (< 200% attack time) attack, then it should alternate between the two. Otherwise, why not just throw some Sword of Uber Uberness+++ with buffs to everything under the sun, but hits for 1-1 damage on the offhand.

Just my though...

I come from a long line of MMORPG playing, going as far back as having played Everquest in 98. As such, I am very much of the show me actual data from the game that it's broken. And not just the numbers displayed on a character sheet. It can be quite a bit more difficult in this one since I haven't found any way to really log your combat and damage, but that doesn't mean people can't go out and run some semi-objective tests.

Like I did with the video, I showed actual in game footage of me taking on some even level mobs and showed both hands hitting enemies. To me, that seems to be at least functional. As to whether it's the kind of damage that's intended remains to be seen. But DW looks to be far from outright broken based on what I experience when I play and from the video I captured.

I never go on heresay, since it always seems to be biased in one direction or another. Unless it is backed up with data, it is rarely ever accurate. I just haven't been able to find any of that concrete evidence of DW being as broken as people say it is.

I'm not really arguing it, I am trying to find out how it's broken when what I see in game is contrary to what I am hearing. That's just kind of how I've always been.

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As stated by Stephen in the past: The animations work, so you see both weapons swinging. However, only the main hand weapon does any damage. This is somehow being addressed in the patch that is being applied as we speak. Therefore making this a moot point. :) Thank goodness!

Hint: When you get an answer from a Dev, its time to stop arguing. :p

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And how far back in the past was that, 5 years?

I did some actual damage tests during the last part of the beta that proved damage was dealt by both weapons. People just ignored those with "but I was told that the devs once said that it didn't work, so we won't accept any evidence to the contrary". And never once, before Errika, did anyone else try to check it out for themselves (or at least try test it and post the results).

It would seem that after the patch duel wield is still not functioning. I did test these with 2 good purples i had gotten in preperation for the patch fixing it and from what i seen i killed things with the same speed using just a single weapon to using both weapons which pretty much to me is saying the second weapons swings are not doing damage and i did he dmg display on and did not see any misses during the tests.

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As stated by Stephen in the past: The animations work, so you see both weapons swinging. However, only the main hand weapon does any damage. This is somehow being addressed in the patch that is being applied as we speak. Therefore making this a moot point. :) Thank goodness!

Hint: When you get an answer from a Dev, its time to stop arguing. :p

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And how far back in the past was that, 5 years?

I did some actual damage tests during the last part of the beta that proved damage was dealt by both weapons. People just ignored those with "but I was told that the devs once said that it didn't work, so we won't accept any evidence to the contrary". And never once, before Errika, did anyone else try to check it out for themselves (or at least try test it and post the results).

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I cared to add that I too tested it, it did work problem was that at first I thought it was lag, after a while I discover it wasn't lag, so yeah Ive been telling people that DW works only to be said by some it doesn't with the old commentary that doesn't work...

I wonder what the chances are of having some form of a combat log added to really be able to test this kind of thing.

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It would seem that after the patch duel wield is still not functioning. I did test these with 2 good purples i had gotten in preperation for the patch fixing it and from what i seen i killed things with the same speed using just a single weapon to using both weapons which pretty much to me is saying the second weapons swings are not doing damage and i did he dmg display on and did not see any misses during the tests.

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How to test Dual Wield:

1) Unequip anything that alters your attributes, skills, damage, to-hit, size and so forth. Use Whites ONLY! This is to make sure nothing interferes with damage calculations.

2) Get two one-handed white weapons with a large difference in damage, preferably with the same speed. Recommended is a level 1 thing from the Dew Valley merchant and a similar white that is as high level as you can use (should be minimum level 25). This is to help differentiate which weapon damage comes from.

3) Ensure that the weapons deal the stated damage to your chosen test subjects by wielding each weapon alone and attacking for a while. You should note the highest and the lowest damage dealt for each weapon.

4) Test DW by equipping both weapons and attacking your test subjects. Note the damage range and compare to the numbers found in 3).

Trying your normal kill gear will only show you how Dual Wield balances against your normal setup, it will not show you whether Dual Wield is bugged. Being underpowered is not the same as not working.

To refine #4 in the previous post, make sure the level 1 sword is in your main hand, and the level 25+ sword is in your off hand. You should quickly notice a large jump in damage output when you equip the second sword.

To be absolutely sure, do this on a mage with 10 strength.

I'd like to add that whether it's broken or not, it majorly penalizes you on Cleave, because it uses only damage from one (assumedly the main) weapon.

Or something. With butcher and soul rend both gimped, it hurts to have cleave be near-useless for one of the fighter's main strategic choices.

I have tested Dual Wielding in the following manner:

I got a really low level grey dagger that did 3-8 damage and I got another weapon of equal speed that was level 45 and did a max of about 500 damage.

I tested both weapons alone, with nothing in my offhand. I then tested both weapons in my offhand with nothing in my mainhand. (Interesting note, you will punch with a slothful speed and your offhand will hit faster if it's a faster weapon)

I equipped the wimpy weapon mainhand and the good weapon offhand and went out to fight. I noticed that both weapons swing at the same time if they're the same speed, and that my mainhand weapon was doing about 500 damage on average and my offhand weapon was doing about 1000 damage on average. This makes sense. My strength is giving it about 500 damage, and that's added to whatever random damage is generated by the engine for the raw weapon damage itself.

I then switched to have the wimpy weapon in my offhand and the powerful weapon in my mainhand. The damage values were identical, 500 average for my offhand now, and 1000 for my mainhand.

I then tested dual-wielding with two level 45 weapons and got similar results (but now both weapons were averaging 1000 damage per hit)

Dual-wielding does not seem to penalize the weapon damage for either hand.


I also found that using a very fast weapon in one hand, and a very slow weapon in the other hand gives you no noticable benefit. The slow weapon swings slower than the fast one and the two weapons do swing independantly.

You can't put a ludicrous dagger mainhand and a slothful hammer offhand and exploit weapon speed.


The only thing I was unable to confirm is the 20% melee speed bonus when dual-wielding. If I can get ahold of two slothful one-hand weapons I can get a stopwatch and time my swings over the course of 60 seconds or so and determine if there really is a speed bonus, however, this 20% bonus claimed in the patch notes has NO EFFECT on weapon based cooldown times.

If you have only one weapon, or if you're dual-wielding (identical weapons) the cooldown times remain unchanged. I don't know if this proves or disproves anything. I'd have to literally time it to be sure.

It actually is a benefit with soul rend to use faster weapons, because the cooldown is faster, which means you get the DoT effect to occur more often.

Cleave and Butcher, however, are just as useless dual-wielding as they are with a shield, and trust me, 2 handed weapons aren't much better for either of them now...

-Leiknir-

Has anyone else noticed the sound void when you start attacking with your offhand? (Using butcher)

Intresting, this confirms why my slothful sword in my mainhand didnt give me any benefit with my rediculus speeded offhand.

And the 20% is easy to test just the way you described. I had 2x slothful swords at some point, but no more. You can farm Rotgut for lvl 38-42 ones from what I remember.