Well, I do have faith that this can be fixed somehow since it's blatantly obvious I'm not the only one who has definite "feelings" about what's been happening. I don't doubt the devs actual concern about the issue, and I also have faith that they most definitely want everyone to be happy while making the game fun in all aspects. I dont think the devs are being lazy or turning a blind eye necessarily.

Stephen has said a couple of times that the dev team spends much less time on pvp than they do on pve (understandably) and so I dont think that they're bending over backwards to make pvp happy as it is a respective "minority" part of the game, but maybe since this time spent developing pvp is so much smaller these things get overlooked and then fixed in hind sight. I dunno, and that's why I finally opened my giant mouth and said something - not to incite quiet riot and cause a giant fight, but to really try to get an idea of how the devs view this "issue" and move us to a solution.

Maybe the devs DO need to spend more time on pvp, or have a dedicated pvp dev or something... Maybe we do need separate pvp worlds again - on which you have to create a pvp character... again, I'm not sure.

Hi Teclis,

I went back and looked at all the releases on update this morning. After PVP was rel;eased almost all skill changes that ahve been made to enhance pvp were made for pvp or balanced to make pvp more playable. It is scary when you look at it. yes the pve worlds receved loot and new dungeons , and a few new spells , but in almost all cases tehy were changed or modified to fix pvp issues. Looks like the the actual time spent on pvp might still be smaller but the impact of that time has been huge.

If a skill is overpowered (or underpowered) it makes itself very apparent in PvP play. Overpowered and underpowered skills are always something that we're on the lookout for. Any changes we've made to skills have been for the good of PvP and PvE balance. Of course, that idea of "good" is really just the opinion of the development team.

Joe, I've seen you make the claim that I promised to never make PvE skill balance changes based on PvP feedback many times before... and I think either my memory is faulty or there's a misunderstanding here. Please correct me if my memory is not correct.

When we put PvP gameplay in, I certainly did speak to keeping the balance changes separate. And, indeed they still are. Consider the following PvP-only balance changes:

1. The basis of all damage resistances is lower in PvP, making skills harder to resist.

2. Damage reflection is much less effective in PvP.

3. Critical hit chances are lower in PvP.

4. No potions are allowed in PvP.

5. Damage and health is totally modified in PvP.

6. The effects of armor are modified in PvP (allowing low-level armor to compete better with high-level armor).

7. The effects of health and mana steal items is much reduced in PvP.

8. The effects of stun resistance is much lower in PvP.

Now, these are some major difference between the PvP game that are not being applied to the PvE game at all. Nor will they be applied in the future. The balance between the two games is fundamentally different.

Skill changes are another matter altogether. When we add a new skill, we try to make it useful in PvE and PvP. There's really no complaints against an overpowered skill in PvE. Heck, if you can mow down tons of monsters with a skill that's great for most folks. All we hear about in the PvE game is when a skill is underpowered.

PvP, on the other hand, is an excellent source of information on relative skill power. If there's an overpowered skill then it will rise to infamy in PvP. If that's the case then perhaps a counter is required... or a modification to how the overpowered skill works is in order.

On the issue of blocking out certain skills in PvP. That really is a last resort... something that we really don't want to ever do. I've heard the complaints about Chill Bill... and really haven't seen them hold up to scrutiny. Sure, a well-played Bill is hard for some characters to beat. But, in my experience, it's the low-level PvP twinks that have the most trouble with him. That certainly doesn't make Bill broken. It means that you should probably level up and get the means to deal with him. Or wait for a low-level counter skill to show up (which is not likely any time soon).

To recap, we use PvP as a testing ground for skill balance and analysis. When we see a skill that is overpowered then we will adjust it. The trouble is that we get the most overpowered feedback from PvP players. And, in some cases, those claims turn out to be reasonable. When they are, we address the issues. Sadly, being imperfect, we don't make all our skills perfect the first time. It takes time and testing to uncover all the possible issues with a skill. Please don't assume that we're trying to screw over any players when we make a skill balance change. That's not our intention at all.

steve

I did not say you promised to NEVER make skill balance changes based on PVP feedback .. i said you would keep the balance issues separate. Maybe it is becuase i dont PVP, and really dont feel the need to, that I dont see your changes to skills as being for the betterment of the PVE game. Maybe I misunderstood your keeping balance issues seperate to include skils too ... if that is the case then I am wrong. Well either way though I am wrong, since you are the boss and make the final calls. As I have said in the past someone has to stand up for the PVE world given that there are very few that seem to. I know PVPers complain alot more and therefore get alot more balance attention.

A specific example of this would be the changes of speed boosts for range/melee weapons. This was purely changed to balance PVP although at the time it was denied and we were told it was for the whole game. Somehow it was overpowered it pve too. These are the types of skill changes that I ask about.

I know you have made many things scale on PVP only and for that I am grateful, I mentioned a few in my post earlier although it is good to see a more complete list.

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PvP, on the other hand, is an excellent source of information on relative skill power. If there's an overpowered skill then it will rise to infamy in PvP.

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The problem I have with this is that a skill maybe overpowered against 1 type of character doesnt mean it is overpowered against a mixed mob in PVE. And most of the [censored] and complaining from PVPers comes from 1 class being overpowered against another do to a specific skill. I dont see how this translates into a skill being overpowered in PVE.

The recent changes to ranged weapon attack distances was based on PvP balance observations. However, there was a 15% increase in range! The range of all ranged weapons was underpowered in our opinion, not overpowered. So, rangers got a buff from these changes... it goes both ways, I guess.

The changes to attack buff speeds were made to help with overall DPS in PvE and PvP. The skills Trigger Finger Frenzy and Swivel Arm Action acted far too similarly for our tastes. Having TFF with a high DPS boost for a shorter time is still very effective... and more interesting in my opinion.

Let me give you my opinions on how the skill balance changes we make are for the betterment of both PvE and PvP:

Dominant strategies are, in my opinion, to be avoided. If there's a single skill (or skill combo) that overpowers all others then that's something that should be looked at.

Skills are more interesting if there are cases when the skill is both good and bad. That makes the player have to give a bit more consideration when using a skill.

Every skill change that we've made has been based on the goal of increasing strategy choice and breaking dominant strategies.

It seems to me that increasing skill options and breaking dominant strategies makes the entire game better. And, as developers, we need to use all the information at our disposal to make this happen.

You have an excellent point about 1v1 balance and PvE mob balance. They are different. And we consider them very differently. One does not immediately translate to the other... and we never make willy nilly decisions about a skill.

I hope I'm not coming across as rude here. That's certainly not my intention. We also have no desire to turn anyone off of the game through our changes.

If you ever have any question as to the reasoning behind any balance change then please feel free to ask. Every single one has the weight of consideration and thought behind it. I generally summarize our thinking in patch notes, but there's even more detail that we can share.

Respectfully,

steve

paedon if i go off on a tangent or if the spelling gets bad... it's late and the wife is sleeping so no lights on in the room:)


But you mention that

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Every skill change that we've made has been based on the goal of increasing strategy choice and breaking dominant strategies

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now i like stratagey ,,, but that isn't one of the main reasons I play DR.

I work in retail selling video games and quiet honestly I can think of several dozen that require Atrategy and that do it much better than DR does. Now don't get me wrong I've been here for over a year now and started paying almost on day 1 when that went live. But what happened to the fun? I work sometimes 60+ hours a week and if I actually wanted an MMO the required me to think overly much I'd bite the bullet and submit to the peer pressure and play WOW....

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The recent changes to ranged weapon attack distances was based on PvP balance observations. However, there was a 15% increase in range! The range of all ranged weapons was underpowered in our opinion, not overpowered. So, rangers got a buff from these changes... it goes both ways, I guess.

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yes that's nice and everything but i play my ranger a lot like I play Bogey if I'm in the middle of 3 mobs I'm havin a blast.....

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The changes to attack buff speeds were made to help with overall DPS in PvE and PvP. The skills Trigger Finger Frenzy and Swivel Arm Action acted far too similarly for our tastes. Having TFF with a high DPS boost for a shorter time is still very effective... and more interesting in my opinion.

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but if TTF last longer you still have a higher DPS? so why other that for sake of PvP did it get changed?

You mention dominant stratgeies a couple of times... well so what if someone comes up with a dominant stratagy? It doesn't mean pigwhistle in PvE. All it means is they are gonna reach lvl 100 sooner tha later. I've already came up with a dominant strategy for PvE... I kill all the little buggers running around and enjoy myself while I'm doing it.

Just once I'd like sometihing changed that made it better for PvE instead of worse. and Abby stiil doesn't count as better IMO

Gary

I'm thinking what he means by dominant strategy, is some skill or skill set that everyone uses because its simply the most effective. If different strategies didn't work as effectively, everyone would just be using the same thing, and things become more cookie cutter, and there's no variation in good gameplay tactics, so its boring.

I'll use DC fighters as an example, at least 75% of the mid to high level fighters in pvp are using DC, because its extremely effective, and virtually unstoppable. Its extremely annoying to go into a fight with a dc fighter every time you enter the ring(facing a fighter), as a mage or a ranger. And it's become a dominant strategy because of this, bill to.